# The film Groundhog Day proves Heaven isn't real **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2023, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733 "2023-07-28T15:03:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/81 "2023-07-31T17:15:00Z")
I’ll counter that by saying it sounds to me like you’re bored already ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/82 "2023-07-31T17:18:51Z")
Nope. The lies people tell themselves is just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/83 "2023-07-31T17:19:25Z")
You think I’m lying? ---
**Author:** ![epbrown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/84 "2023-07-31T17:45:20Z")
You should make battleship armor - the irony is **thick** here. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/85 "2023-07-31T17:49:35Z")
Groundhog day does not _explicitly,_ in-story, prove that heaven isn’t (real/possible/tolerable/whatever), because in the story, just before the cycle is broken, Phil is completely at peace with the situation. Groundhog day doesn’t _implicitly_ (from the audience perspective) prove it either, because the scenario given is one in which nothing he does (except within his own mind) has any persistence longer than 18 hours. Groundhog day is hell (to the extent that it actually is) not because of the repetition, but because the ability to achieve even the most ordinary of objectives is thwarted by a daily wipe. It’s the difference between: 1. planting an acorn, watching it grow into an oak tree, felling the tree and making furniture from the timber and when the furniture wears out, sitting by the embers of a fire, telling stories and toasting marshmallows and thinking about where to plant another tree. And 2. Planting an acorn and coming back the next day to discover someone dug it up and smashed it. _Of course_ scenario 2 is horrible. Having your will thwarted generally is. This is quite apart from the question of whether repetition is inevitably boring, because groundhog day, although it contains repetition, is presenting other things too. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/86 "2023-07-31T17:50:13Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > You think I’m lying? You are not lying to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/87 "2023-07-31T17:51:11Z")
> [@epbrown](#): > > You should make battleship armor - the irony is **thick** here. You can make the Projection Cannon. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/88 "2023-07-31T17:52:27Z")
Your argument is unfalsifiable. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/89 "2023-07-31T17:56:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Anyway, kind of surprised this thread has gone as long as it has without mentioning _The Good Place_, because it explicitly tackles this whole concept in it’s final season. I think that deserves a thread of it’s own. It’s a much deeper look at the subject. Groundhog’s was a great movie in it’s own right, but if it’s about heaven/hell/purgatory then it’s only a look at it from one narrow aspect. > [@Sitnam](#): > > When faced with the time and ability to do whatever they want for an eternity humans will get bored very quickly. I agree. However, I’ve been bored before and always found something to relieve my boredom. Your conclusions aren’t unreasonable at all, but I still think that eternity, at least eternity in purgatory or heaven, doesn’t have to be a horror to endure. Part of it is the attitude you take. In the movie that’s what changed things for Murray’s character, though you can’t assume there’s a way out, but just like life you make your way through what you have. I’ll say that there’s at least a 90% chance that the Groundhog’s Day cycle would leave me bored beyond my ability to cope with it, but I hold out for it not being the only possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/90 "2023-07-31T18:42:14Z")
Concur. I would say it’s fairly easy to define versions of eternal existence that would be intolerable, but I don’t think it’s very difficult to conceive versions where eternal existence would be indefinitely tolerable, even pleasant and fulfilling. None of this is an argument for the existence of these things, only the logical possibility of them. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/91 "2023-07-31T18:52:46Z")
I too feel that heaven would become boring. It’s kind of depressing that the best possible option is non existence, ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/92 "2023-07-31T18:54:42Z")
I might not know how to ask this question, but, in our universe, does _anything_ stay the same/static forever, or is change inevitable? Like, is there theoretically a hydrogen atom that came into existence right around the same time as the big bang, that is still floating around as the _same unchanged_ hydrogen atom? If so, could it always be? If so, at what more complex point than an atom are things unable to stay static forever - like an organism? Just curious. I think my bigger point is, if true, why would inventible change would be different in Heaven. Even if you could tolerate it (existing for such an long period of time), in our reality, nothing has been shown to exist forever. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/93 "2023-07-31T19:10:13Z")
I’m not sure if maybe fundamental particles last forever, but the get-out that most believers (of the Christian variety at least) would argue is _‘well, heaven is different, obviously’_ And it’s not even like they would be making that up on the spot, in response to your question - the notion of the physical universe being a sort of corrupted version of the eternal one is already established in the belief system. Again, not arguing that there’s any validity to it, just that they have an answer ready ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/94 "2023-07-31T19:15:42Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > I too feel that heaven would become boring. It’s kind of depressing that the best possible option is non existence, I wrestled with this early as a teenager. My conclusion was that non-existing was just fine as an endpoint and impermanence was the source of meaning for everything around me. But that’s just me, you do you. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/95 "2023-07-31T19:30:43Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Human conscience cannot handle large numbers… > mortal man can never get to and enjoy… > the human brain will turn into if it exists anywhere for too long… I realize heaven is just a concept but I don’t know a lot of people who believe any part of them that goes there is human or mortal. I think a more commonly held belief is that we leave our mere mortal human bodies and brains behind and our spirits go onto to something more enlightened. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/96 "2023-07-31T19:47:32Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Well Phil never met God, He did meet the devil though. And his name is…Ned. > [@Sitnam](#): > > You guys do not really understand infinity. And this is the failing of imagination of Christians. Forever is a LONG time. And then even more long time. I had a crisis when I was a child, when I believed. I contemplated how long forever is, and it scared me. I understood, truly. I stared into the abyss, and the abyss never ended, I had an existential claustrophobic attack. I was doomed to go to heaven, and there _was no escape!_ Not even death could free me from eternity’s trap. It really freaked me out! You want freak-out? Read _Absent From Thee Felicity Awhile_, by SP Somtow. In the story, aliens come to our planet, and offer us immortality. The “payment”, as it were, is the entire existence of humanity alive has to repeat the same day over…and over…for a million years, so they can study us. And you have aware consciousness, but you are unable to do anything\* except watch the same day over and over and over, doomed to repeat the same actions, the same conversations. \*you sort of can make changes, but it is really difficult, and the changes are the new normal that gets repeated from then on. “That, too, is being studied.” ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/97 "2023-07-31T19:55:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > As an atheist, this take doesn’t make sense coming or going. > > **Can I imagine an eternity that isn’t hell? Yes. Heaven has God in it, God is omnipotent, so if God wants you to spend eternity genuinely happy, you’ll spend eternity genuinely happy. You won’t ever get sick of it because God doesn’t want you to get sick of it. That’s an easy enough concept to understand, even if I don’t believe in it.** > > On the other side, if I were a Christian, the “eternity” of “The Jaunt” is still completely comprehensible. It’s eternity without the presence of god to make it bearable. I mean, this part isn’t ever really theoretical or hypothetical. You lock a human being in a room with no sensory input, and no social contact, and leave them there for long enough, their mind will absolutely disintegrate. Emphasis added—this is the part Sitnam refuses to acknowledge. He needn’t believe it, merely acknowledge the concept. But in doing so his thesis evaporates—i.e., heaven cannot be conceived as a state of being, it can only be human consciousness forced to endure an unendurable eternity. Therefore we get continuous belaboring of the notion that eternity is a really long time. I know I’d hate to be stuck in this thread for eternity. 😊 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/98 "2023-07-31T21:56:50Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I don’t feel a need to address those specifics since I wasn’t arguing anyone’s particular favourite version of heaven. I was talking about whether living forever _must inevitably_ become boring. I don’t expect anyone to be able to answer. After all, when heaven was conceived life for almost everyone was boring, save for feast days and when the local invaders would arrive to pillage. But the answers to these questions impact on the answer to your question. I’d be much less likely to be bored over infinite time with infinite input of new ideas, art and literature from newcomers versus standing around strumming on a harp praising god. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/99 "2023-07-31T23:11:58Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > As an atheist, this take doesn’t make sense coming or going. > > > > **Can I imagine an eternity that isn’t hell? Yes. Heaven has God in it, God is omnipotent, so if God wants you to spend eternity genuinely happy, you’ll spend eternity genuinely happy. You won’t ever get sick of it because God doesn’t want you to get sick of it. That’s an easy enough concept to understand, even if I don’t believe in it.** > > > > On the other side, if I were a Christian, the “eternity” of “The Jaunt” is still completely comprehensible. It’s eternity without the presence of god to make it bearable. I mean, this part isn’t ever really theoretical or hypothetical. You lock a human being in a room with no sensory input, and no social contact, and leave them there for long enough, their mind will absolutely disintegrate. > > Emphasis added—this is the part Sitnam refuses to acknowledge. He needn’t believe it, merely acknowledge the concept. But in doing so his thesis evaporates—i.e., heaven cannot be conceived as a state of being, it can only be human consciousness forced to endure an unendurable eternity. > > Therefore we get continuous belaboring of the notion that eternity is a really long time. I know I’d hate to be stuck in this thread for eternity. 😊 I was aware of this possibility, I mentioned it above. It’s a State of Being that must be so completely alien to the human mind that were it to exist it wouldn’t be a person anymore in any meaningful sense. Sure a photograph looks like you, but because it doesn’t need to eat, doesn’t need love, doesn’t age, it isn’t a person. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733/100 "2023-07-31T23:26:49Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > It’s a State of Being that must be so completely alien to the human mind that were it to exist it wouldn’t be a person anymore in any meaningful sense. Heaven must be so completely alien to normal mortal life that you shouldn’t try shoe horn it in to your preconceived notions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-film-groundhog-day-proves-heaven-isnt-real/987733.md?page=6)