# The Final Answer: 9mm vs. .45 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 26, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831 "2005-01-26T22:07:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/21 "2005-01-27T03:53:13Z")
**Scylla** , when were US soldiers killing Filipinos? ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/22 "2005-01-27T03:56:15Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Sig line!! > > 😃 friend silenus, i have been a member more than 5 years that is my first sig line redsponse! thanks! lh ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/23 "2005-01-27T03:58:11Z")
There were several rebellions after the US came into possession of the islands in 1899. The standard issue .38 just didn’t do the job, so the Army went back to the drawing boards. The result was the 1911 .45. _During the same time frame that John Browning was working on many of his 128 patents, a tribe of warriors, the Moro, were giving the U.S. Army a very hard time in the Philippines. To prepare for battle, the Moro would bind their limbs with leather, take narcotics, and use religious ritual to gain an altered state of consciousness, this turned them into virtual Supermen. The .38 Long Colt pistol round the U.S. soldiers had simply would not stop the Moro. Of note is the fact that the Krag rifles the U.S. issued were also barely more than useless._ from [here.](http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/1911care.htm) ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/24 "2005-01-27T04:08:56Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > There were several rebellions after the US came into possession of the islands in 1899. The standard issue .38 just didn’t do the job, so the Army went back to the drawing boards. The result was the 1911 .45. > > _During the same time frame that John Browning was working on many of his 128 patents, a tribe of warriors, the Moro, were giving the U.S. Army a very hard time in the Philippines. To prepare for battle, the Moro would bind their limbs with leather, take narcotics, and use religious ritual to gain an altered state of consciousness, this turned them into virtual Supermen. The .38 Long Colt pistol round the U.S. soldiers had simply would not stop the Moro. Of note is the fact that the Krag rifles the U.S. issued were also barely more than useless._ > > from [here.](http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/1911care.htm) Oh, _those_ filipinos. Before they were civilized. Some are still around (their kin, anyway) raising hell with the now civilized Filipinos. My mind was stuck in WW2. Thanks for the nudge. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/25 "2005-01-27T04:13:20Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > 9mm: not enough gun. .45: too much gun. I’d say the .40 (or the comparitively rare 10mm) is pretty near perfect. Which begs the question-why is the 10mm so rare? The power is there, it’s a comfortable handgun to carry and shoot, yet I don’t know of anyone else who owns one. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/26 "2005-01-27T04:34:12Z")
> [@Old School](#): > > Assuming Jacketed-Hollow-Point Bullets (the standard today), and standard loading pressure, which caliber does more damage to it’s recipient? I’m sure a mod will come along to say “asked and answered” then close the threae or move it to GD but I’m happy to add to the dogfight. > [@Scruloose](#): > > The .45 is better. Even if you _miss_, it can still be pretty effective. 😉 Whaaa? You got som ‘splainin’ to do about how that can be so. > [@Scylla](#): > > A 9mm is a big slow bullet that tumbles around and does a lot of damage, but it lacks the force of a.45. You can literally shoot down small trees with 9mm talons if you can get them. Guh? Where I come from 9mm parabellum use little bullets. Typically 115-124 grains weight compared to 125-158 grain for most .357 magnum and 185-230 grain for .45 ACP. > [@faldureon](#): > > 9mm? .45? Oh please! Let the schoolboys fight that one out. Real men argue about the 14.5 and .223 Buh? What the heck is a 14.5? Old school 1911 crumudgeon here. I’ve had a hotrodded Colt combat target model for years and I’m keen to get a Kimber. I also like designs less than 94 years old so I have an EAA Witness I’m prepping for IDPA. It’s an Italian clone of the Czech CZ-75 that is stretched to accomdate .45 ACP. It holds ten rounds in a standard double stack magazine. My carry piece is a Sig P245, a shortened version of the .45 ACP P220 used by many police department. ---
**Author:** ![RevCo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@RevCo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RevCo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/27 "2005-01-27T04:48:36Z")
You know, ever since i got [my grenade machine gun](http://www.army.mil/fact_files_site/mk19-3/) I stopped worrying. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/28 "2005-01-27T08:12:07Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Which begs the question-why is the 10mm so rare? The power is there, it’s a comfortable handgun to carry and shoot, yet I don’t know of anyone else who owns one. From what I remember reading about the Colt 10mm (M1911A1 derivative), the cartridge was so hot that it beat the heck out of the frame and misc. parts, leading to a shortened life of the pistol. ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/29 "2005-01-27T14:36:33Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > Whaaa? You got som ‘splainin’ to do about how that can be so. The .45 is the only small arm I’ve fired where, on occasion, you can actually see the round travel down range. The point of my (poor) humor is, seeing that big heavy round from a .45 coming at you probably has an added psychological impact - effective even if you miss. It’s a stretch, I know. OK, I got nuthin. ---
**Author:** ![Old\_School](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e95f7d/32.png) [@Old\_School](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Old_School)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/30 "2005-01-27T22:41:42Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > The question is too general and needs some definitions and limits. > > Define “Damge to Recipient”. Are you talking the diamater of the hole? The depth of the hole? What part of the recipient is taking the damage? Hit in the heart? Lung? Head? > Also, what are the specifications of your test? > Shot at point blank range? 5 feet? 50 yards? Argh…you’re right…I didn’t give my question enough thought… -Specifications: -At point blank, 7 yards, and 25 yards -Damage to Recipient: Damage in total volume of tissue/ penetration/ any known, measurable side effects (such as rumored ‘knockdown power’) -Chances of hit Assuming random hits to a torso (I’m not exactly sure how to get the size of an average torso or its organs, help?!?) find the probablity of achieving a near instantaneous (2 seconds or less) fatal or incapacitating shot. (The variable would be bullet diameter) That’s terribly specific…good luck Cecil & Co. ---
**Author:** ![Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cornelius_Tuggerson)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/31 "2005-01-27T23:04:47Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > Buh? What the heck is a 14.5? This is a [14.5](http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg01-e.htm) using gun. Generally if you are getting shot at with 14.5 ammunition it means that one of the worlds major armies is after you. Hey **RevCo** way to think outside the box 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/32 "2005-01-27T23:21:39Z")
Geeze **Scruloose** , I didn’t mean to make you feel bad. Yeah, a .45 coming at you is pretty damn big but even a 5.56mm barrel looks like the freaking Holland Tunnel when it’s pointed at you. **faldureon** , neat weapon but I’ll see that and raise you 5.5mm. One of the local galleries (not the art kind) has a Lahti sitting behind the counter, a 20mm antitank gun that is configured as a shoulder weapon. It looks like a triple size Bren on a bipod. Even with a muzzle brake that looks like it came off a tank it’s supposed to be brutal to shoot. Ammo is $37 a pop so don’t anticipate taking it out any time soon. **Old School** , I think the question gets even harder. It probably takes a central nervous system hit to guarantee complete incapacitation in two seconds. The difference in diameter of the bullet, .355" vs .452", is not going to be significant but bullet expansion and temporary/permanent wound channel may be. Not all expanding bullets work the same. ---
**Author:** ![Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cornelius_Tuggerson)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/33 "2005-01-27T23:30:07Z")
**Padeye** I see your 5.5 and raise you this urban legend WW2 anti-tank rifle I’ve heard of. The russians developed and tested an anti-tank rifle that was viciously effective(accuracy and damage wise). It only had a single little problem one shot = one broken arm (of the person who fired the gun). The engineers figured that since its WW2 one soldiers arm for one german tank wasn’t bad and sent their findings to Stalin. The gun never saw the light of day because Stalin said the only way he’d let it be used is if the developers form the first anti-tank squad equipped with it. What its calibre must have been I dare not even contemplate. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/34 "2005-01-27T23:50:46Z")
> [@Old School](#): > > Assuming random hits to a torso (I’m not exactly sure how to get the size of an average torso or its organs, help?!?) find the probablity of achieving a near instantaneous (2 seconds or less) fatal or incapacitating shot. (The variable would be bullet diameter) > > That’s terribly specific…good luck Cecil & Co. I wish I could remember the name of the study… A researcher figured the best way to answer that very question was to study the results first-hand at Cook County General Hospital. That gave him a large pool of actual gunshot victims. He then took all of those who were rendered hors-de-combat with one shot and broke them down by caliber, load, bullet type, etc. IIRC, the best percentage of one-shot stops was achieved by the aforementioned 125 JHP .357. It rated around 75%. The best loadings of 9mm and .45 both rated around 69%. There was not a tremendous difference in real-life situations between the two cartridges. Given that, my choice would be 13 vs 8. Guess which one wins? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/35 "2005-01-28T00:22:15Z")
> [@RevCo](#): > > You know, ever since i got [my grenade machine gun](http://www.army.mil/fact_files_site/mk19-3/) I stopped worrying. So _that’s_ the 40 you guys keep talking about? 😉 (\< note the winky) Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/36 "2005-01-28T00:50:15Z")
I remember reading somewhere (I’l get to the “somewhere” in a second) that if you really want to stop an attacker, you should practice shooting three round rapid-fire groups. True? If so, would that alter one’s choice of weapon, considering you get a lot more rounds in a smaller caliber? Now for the “somewhere” I might’ve picked this up; James Bond novel, M16 (or similar) burst setting, the SDMB, actual article, a movie, or just about anywhere except on a milk carton. I read _way_ too much. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/37 "2005-01-28T01:01:24Z")
2, not 3. The famous “double-tap” is indeed a style many are trained to use in such a situation. See [here.](http://www.sportshooter.com/encyclopedia/DoubleTap.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/38 "2005-01-28T01:14:35Z")
In the CG, we’ve moved away from the “double tap” mindset. Now you’re taught to shoot until the threat is eliminated. That being said, the first two phases of fire in our practical pistol course is two rounds from the hip, a third using sights in 3 seconds. So, while we don’t preach it in training, remnants of it remain at the range. [/sidejack] ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/39 "2005-01-28T01:22:44Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 2, not 3. The famous “double-tap” is indeed a style many are trained to use in such a situation. See [here.](http://www.sportshooter.com/encyclopedia/DoubleTap.htm) Yep, that’s it alright. I think the three round idea got into my head due to the “burst setting” I mentioned. Wouldn’t two well placed hits from a 9mm be more effective than one from a .45, given that effectively double-tapping with the .45 is likely much more difficult? Is this question off-topic? Whaddya think, **Old School**? Thanks, silenus. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/40 "2005-01-28T01:47:08Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > From what I remember reading about the Colt 10mm (M1911A1 derivative), the cartridge was so hot that it beat the heck out of the frame and misc. parts, leading to a shortened life of the pistol. Mine is a S&W 1006, and yes-it is a hot load, but doesn’t seem extreme. I chose it over the .40 because it doesn’t stagger the clip load-slimmer profile for concealed carry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831.md?page=3)