# The Final Answer: 9mm vs. .45 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 26, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831 "2005-01-26T22:07:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/81 "2005-01-29T13:12:06Z")
Bob Munden can let loose 6 shots from a revolver in just over 1 sec. The quality sucks, but you can see a video of it [here.](http://www.bob-munden.com/sixgun.htm) > [@](#): > > Ed used a S&W revolver, as did the guy who fairly recently broke some of his records He might be the one you’re thinking of **Padeye**. I’ve seen him do this on TV, and it’s quite remarkable just how fast he can shoot that thing. It almost seems impossible if you don’t see it for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/82 "2005-01-29T13:19:56Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > I’ll find a fully authoritative cite but for now just google “Ed McGivern.” [http://www.chuckhawks.com/americans\_guns\_history.htm](http://www.chuckhawks.com/americans_guns_history.htm) > [@](#): > > Most authorities agree that the incomparable Ed McGivern was the best handgunner that ever lived. Some of his feats have never been duplicated, and his achievements have been recorded in the Guinness Book of World Records. Using an ordinary Smith & Wesson double action revolver, he could break six simultaneously hand thrown clay pigeons (standard trap targets) in the air, before any of them could hit the ground. He once fired 5 shots in 2/5 of a second, a record that has never been broken. He was also a master of the single action revolver and the autoloading pistol, but preferred the double action (police style) revolver because he could operate it faster than the autoloading pistol operated itself! Ed McGivern wrote a book called Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, which tells exactly how he did what he did (no tricks, just superb reflexes and years of intensive practice). Read his book and start practicing, and you, too, can be a fast and fancy revolver shooter! Ed was born in 1874, and wrote his famous book in 1938. For the greatest rifle shot, my vote goes to **Ad Toepperwein** : > **[Alamodome](https://www.alamodome.com/)** [http://www.showmanshooter.com/Museums/Toepperwein/toepperwein.html](http://www.showmanshooter.com/Museums/Toepperwein/toepperwein.html) ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/83 "2005-01-29T13:56:25Z")
These chaps are as fast as they are accurate. It’s nice to be both, that is rare indeed. What they lack, however, is the ability to take a seventh shot without having to stop and reload. To me, that’s daffy. I’ve carried both revolvers and semi’s on duty, and I feel entirely more comfortable with 45 rounds at my disposal, as opposed to 18, especially with the bad guys wearing body armor too. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/84 "2005-01-29T14:39:16Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > I’m thinking you mean the revolver is cocked for the first shot, that’s called firing single action not semi auto. Yep, that’s what I meant. Don’t know how semi-auto got in there. > [@](#): > > he could break six simultaneously hand thrown clay pigeons (standard trap targets) in the air, before any of them could hit the ground. Holy Crap. It surprises me that a humans reaction time (let alone accuracy) is that fast. Faster than a semi-auto can chamber a round. Well, maybe not this human… Interesting stuff guys. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/85 "2005-01-29T14:50:06Z")
After reading this thread, I would submit we have a DopeFest with a “shootout” (preferrably at a supervised range), so we can iron out details and discuss the OP, do a little “research”, and compare some real pieces . . . . . . and blow the hell out of some clay pigeons. 😃 Tripler Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/86 "2005-01-29T15:36:21Z")
I have a stack of guest passes for my [range](http://www.gilbertrange.com/), and would be delighted to host a shoot off, with everyone being responsible for their own equipment, and ammo, of course. (I will buy and be reimbursed, if you wish, since I get a discount. If you buy bulk, you already get better prices than I do, though.) It’s in Newington, VA, about fifteen miles south of DC, just two blocks off I95. Tris ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/87 "2005-01-29T15:46:48Z")
So that range is still there, **Trisk**? The last time I shot there was sometime in '93-'94. My dad became a member of Shooter’s Paradise in Woodbridge, so I did most of my shooting there. If’n y’all want to shoot clays, I definitely recommend Bull Run, which has a nice layout and pullers for everything. Living in VA Beach, I get up NoVA way less and less these days, (to my Mom’s regret). ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/88 "2005-01-29T16:30:56Z")
**Ed McGivern** was an incredible shot. No doubt about that. But it is my opinion that the most incredible feat ever performed with a firearm was done by **Adolph (“Ad”) Toepperwein** in 1907. According to [this](http://www.plantanswers.com/toepperwein.htm) page, Ad Toepperwein shot at **72,500 wooden cubes** at the San Antonio Fairgrounds. This occurred over a **10-day period**. He used a Winchester 1903 rifle in .22 caliber. Each block was approximately 2.25" x 2.25" x 2.25". Each block was **hand thrown into the air** by someone else. ## **Out of the 72,500 blocks, he missed only _9_** : Date – Number of targets shot at – Number missed ## Dec. 13th – 7,500 – 0 Dec. 14th – 7,000 – 1 Dec. 15th – 7,500 – 0 Dec. 16th – 7,000 – 2 Dec. 17th – 8,000 – 0 Dec. 18th – 7,000 – 1 Dec. 19th – 7,000 – 0 Dec. 20th – 7,000 – 4 Dec. 21st – 8,000 – 0 Dec. 22nd – 6,500 – 1 Total – 72,500 – 9 [Here](http://www.plantanswers.com/topperwein/TOEPPERWEIN%20037.jpg) is a picture of Ad Toepperwein sitting on top of the pile of blocks. _Look_ at that picture. He missed _ **nine** _. :eek: If that’s not incredible, I don’t know what is. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/89 "2005-01-29T17:19:17Z")
> [@Old School](#): > > Cecil, I beg you, come to my aide! You wouldn’t believe the flaming contests people give this question on gun forums! Your my last resort, and I’m hoping that I’ll finally get the straight dope. John Wayne would never have used a nine milimeter. Declan ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/90 "2005-01-29T18:10:57Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > These chaps are as fast as they are accurate. It’s nice to be both, that is rare indeed. What they lack, however, is the ability to take a seventh shot without having to stop and reload. To me, that’s daffy. I’ve carried both revolvers and semi’s on duty, and I feel entirely more comfortable with 45 rounds at my disposal, as opposed to 18, especially with the bad guys wearing body armor too. If you’re even _half_ as good as a McGivern or Topperwein, you don’t need 45 shots. All it takes is practice, and a self-honest critique of your shooting habits. I’m nowhere near being a McGivern or Topperwein, but I’m not bad, either. What amazes me are the one-weekend a year shooters who think I’m some kind of friggin’ “Expert” because I can hit targets they can’t. If they ever see a _real_ shooter, they just might keel over from shock and disbelief. John Ross claims to be able to shoot trap with his .44 revolver. While I won’t call him a liar, my Missouri says, “Show Me.” That’s not a dare; I would really like to see it, just 'cause. Considering the level of marksmanship I’ve seen displayed by others, I’m more than willing to believe that it is possible. Every shooter I’ve ever talked to says the same thing: good, even great marksmanship does not require super-human reflexes or hand-eye coordination. A modest touch of both, coupled with practice and honest self-evaluation, can make an average person into a very respectable marksman (or woman!) ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/91 "2005-01-29T18:53:47Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I’d heard the story about the 1911A, but that Bastion of Truth, the History Channel, says it was the single action .45 that replaced the .38. Well, technically the Colt M1911 _is_ a single-action semiautomatic pistol. And yes, I DO have a sign that reads, “Nits Picked - 50 Cents.” ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/92 "2005-01-29T20:06:42Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > **mangeorge** , my apology for the brusque reply. Please consider it to those who take deadly force lightly, not you. Oh pshaw. 😉 I understand. It’s a very sensitive subject. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/93 "2005-01-29T20:34:39Z")
> [@Scruloose](#): > > Bob Munden can let loose 6 shots from a revolver in just over 1 sec. The quality sucks, but you can see a video of it [here.](http://www.bob-munden.com/sixgun.htm) > He might be the one you’re thinking of **Padeye**. I’ve seen him do this on TV, and it’s quite remarkable just how fast he can shoot that thing. It almost seems impossible if you don’t see it for yourself. What he calls “slip thumbing” is reminescent of what was called “fanning” in old westerns. I’ve (long ago) seen this fanning, where the gun is held in one hand with the trigger held and the hammer slapped repeatedly with the other hand, done by a real shooter who’s name I can’t remember. The guy was also a famous “quick-draw”. Possibly one of the gents mentioned here? Another thing. Bob say’s in the clip that he’s firing full-charge 45’s. Surely he’s not talking about the same .45 rounds **ExTank** (and others) uses in their guns. Bob’s gun barely jumps. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/94 "2005-01-29T21:48:11Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > John Ross claims to be able to shoot trap with his .44 revolver. While I won’t call him a liar, my Missouri says, “Show Me.” That’s not a dare; I would really like to see it, just 'cause. Considering the level of marksmanship I’ve seen displayed by others, I’m more than willing to believe that it is possible. At one time he may have been able to do it. But when I was talking to [John Ross](http://www.john-ross.net) at [Knob Creek Gun Range](http://www.machinegunshoot.com/) (KCR) last year, he seemed really “out of it.” He just didn’t look very healthy. I heard he had a heart attack (possibly brought on by an F.B.I. investigation after he published _[Unintended Consequences](http://www.libertybookshop.us/mall/Unintended-Consequences.htm)_), so maybe that was the reason. Sadly, I believe he’s only a shell of his former himself. At KCR I only saw him shoot once (a .44 mag) for about 5 minutes. He spent almost all of his time hanging around [Kent Lomont’s](http://www.klomont.com/) booth. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831/95 "2005-01-30T17:56:21Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Every shooter I’ve ever talked to says the same thing: good, even great marksmanship does not require super-human reflexes or hand-eye coordination. A modest touch of both, coupled with practice and honest self-evaluation, can make an average person into a very respectable marksman (or woman!) Roger that, **ExTank**. Practice ingrains the muscle memory. To use a golf analogy attributed to Lee Trevino, “the more I practice, the luckier I get.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-final-answer-9mm-vs-45/286831.md?page=4)