# The first presidential debate: 10/3/2012 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 3, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602 "2012-10-03T17:16:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/561 "2012-10-05T15:21:51Z")
Eh, maybe it was a hanky. ---
**Author:** ![Curiosity\_Kills\_Her](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Curiosity\_Kills\_Her](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Curiosity_Kills_Her)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/562 "2012-10-05T15:32:51Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Eh, maybe it was a hanky. That’s my thought. I believe I remember him wiping his sweaty upper lip during the debate. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/563 "2012-10-05T15:42:14Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > This is pretty funny and might deserve its own thread (Bolding for emphasis):So in order for Romney to “increase the tax base” enough to do what he claims he will be able to do, he needs to either create more jobs than the entire civilian labor force, o if he does create 12 million jobs (his claim) the average pay has to be $433,000 per year. > > I am reminded of Bill Clinton’s speech at the DNC… Something about Mathematics… He can double the tax base just by hiring as many fact checkers as his statements require. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/564 "2012-10-05T15:42:29Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > Romney caught cheating at debate? > > [http://www.democraticunderground.com/101764408](http://www.democraticunderground.com/101764408) As much as believe it would be in his character to cheat, I think that is tissue or a hankie as some have mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/565 "2012-10-05T15:57:33Z")
It sure doesn’t look like a hanky to me. We need to get one of those TV detectives to take it to a guy who can zoom in on it so we can read it. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/566 "2012-10-05T16:00:15Z")
It was [a hanky](http://i.imgur.com/sN1hL.png), but did anyone notice some other awkwardness at the end of the debate with Mitt gathering up the notes from his podium? He tried to fold them and put them into a pocket but they wouldn’t fold and wouldn’t fit, so he ended up giving them to his son. [Video here.](http://www.c-spanvideo.org/clip/4006904) ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/567 "2012-10-05T16:04:03Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > It was [a hanky](http://i.imgur.com/sN1hL.png), but did anyone notice some other awkwardness at the end of the debate with Mitt gathering up the notes from his podium? He tried to fold them and put them into a pocket but they wouldn’t fold and wouldn’t fit, so he ended up giving them to his son. [Video here.](http://www.c-spanvideo.org/clip/4006904) The candidates were provided with paper and pens on the podium to take notes, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/568 "2012-10-05T16:07:37Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > The candidates were provided with paper and pens on the podium to take notes, I believe. Oh yes, I know. It was just funny how anxious Mitt was to run over and grab them. Either he didn’t want someone finding his doodles of Obama with a Hitler moustache or perhaps he wants to frame it up for the Trophy Room in one of his mansions. Just amusing and kind of awkward is all. I don’t think it’s anything nefarious. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/569 "2012-10-05T16:20:28Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You completely misunderstand the argument. Jobs are the _effect_ of a strong economy. They are not the cause of it. You’re both wrong. Jobs are neither the cause nor effect of a strong economy; they are part of the definition of it. There is a virtuous cycle in a strong economy in which jobs beget jobs. (And conversely, in a recession, the loss of jobs causes other jobs to be lost.) The rest of your post is standard libertarian economics, but mostly irrelevant so there’s no need to take it apart and look at whether it should or shouldn’t be applied. Boom times, like the Clinton years, would have been boom times no matter the tax structure. Returning the tax code to what it was then would not create a new boom economy (and the strenuous arguments not to do so implicitly confirms that). Crony capitalism has existed since the 19th century, through every high and every low; it causes neither. Our economy is structural, i.e. it emerges from the millions of decisions, innovations, efficiencies, markets, and creations that interact anew every day. (Yes, just as standard capitalist theory states.) A structural economy may have benefits or constraints added into the mix by government - well, not may, always has, and always has both - but the times when government policy has overridden the structural effects can be counted on the fingers of one hand. And this isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/570 "2012-10-05T16:37:08Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Has there been any bellyaching from the right today about Romney’s move to the center? It seems not, which is pretty impressive. I asked my conservative friend about this last night and basically his response boiled down to “anything is better than a socialist.” ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/571 "2012-10-05T16:43:19Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > One other thing… > > Anyone familiar with the [Gish Gallop](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop)? > > I wasn’t (even though I used to immerse myself in Creationism debates on talk.origins back in the day) but I think it explains a lot why Romney won this debate. Are there any effective counter techniques? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/572 "2012-10-05T16:47:41Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > You’re both wrong. I am no economist, but this distills down to a few concise sentences vague ideas that have been bouncing around my head for quite a while now. It has seemed ridiculous to me to lay the largest part of the blame for a bad economy, or to give the largest part of the credit for a good economy to any president, or Congress for that matter. And to the extent that the general public, myself _definitely included_, doesn’t understand the complex forces and interactions that are most important in driving the economy, voting for any elected representative based upon how the economy happens to be doing at the time and which party is in control, is really a futile endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/573 "2012-10-05T16:49:43Z")
This is why I base all of my political endorsements on social policy. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/574 "2012-10-05T18:20:19Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > If the government doesn’t set tax code, who will? Industry lobbyists, of course! ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/575 "2012-10-05T18:26:03Z")
I saw a tweet that claimed that polls showed Romney leading in Virginia, Florida, _and Ohio_. If there was that big a swing in Ohio, I’d be extremely surprised. Is there a link someone can provide to explain/show this? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/576 "2012-10-05T18:31:51Z")
WeAskAmerica is showing Ohio +1 for Romney (a nine-point swing since their last poll in July). Rasmussen is showing Ohio +1 for Obama (no different from their last poll in September). Individual polls aren’t sensitive enough to tell us anything meaningful. You’re going to need to wait a few days to get a sense of the trend and the consensus of polls. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/577 "2012-10-05T18:40:27Z")
Right. I was just asking for the facts (polls showing Romney ahead in Ohio), and you gave them. I look in askance at the fact that the only one (that you listed) was one where they hadn’t polled in three months. At the least, it doesn’t indicate anything about the debate, as you said. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/578 "2012-10-05T19:43:21Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I started watching that but couldn’t get through it once I realized where she was going. With such a small sample size and different conditions at the time of each debate, the whole thing seemed pointless. I wanted to say, Rachel, the debate is over, Obama lost, get over it and start talking about the lies of Romney during the debate. I watched this on the TiVo. If you made it as far as when she showed clips after Mondale bested Reagan in the debate, some of the soundbites from both sides sounded eerily familiar, small sample size or not. This isn’t to say that Obama will win in a landslide like Reagan did, though that would be nice. But it does show how the winner of the first debate is not very predicative of who wins the election (Maddow goes on to show that incumbents won three and lost three of those).. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/579 "2012-10-05T19:49:02Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Are there any effective counter techniques? A moderator who is firm and disallows a debater throwing a mountain of shit against the wall. We can all agree that Jim Lehrer was not that guy though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/580 "2012-10-05T20:12:59Z")
Jim Leher’s authority rested entirely on the gentlemen’s agreement between the camps. As soon as Romney batted him aside and ignored that commitment, it was all over. There was flat out nothing Leher could do about it. And I’m wondering if it was rudeness or calculation, more I think about it, more it seems like the Romney strategy was along the lines of it doesn’t matter what you say, what empty platitudes you offer as substance, so long as you appear assertive and dominant. If Sammy L, Jackson could have give Obama lessons in how he does that Eyeball of Death trick, Mittens might have peed himself. Trouble is, a secret weapon is no good if he won’t stoop to using it. Good in a president, not so hot in a candidate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602.md?page=30)