# The first presidential debate: 10/3/2012 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 3, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602 "2012-10-03T17:16:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/621 "2012-10-07T18:02:32Z")
Jane would be good, but Frans de Waal [Wrote the book.](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_12?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=chimpanzee+politics&sprefix=chimpanzee+p%2Cstripbooks%2C305) ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/622 "2012-10-07T18:39:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It’s all monkey. Jane Goodall could have watched the debate with the sound off, and told you who “won”. We are monkeys who like to pretend we are Vulcans, but we are still monkeys. We think the guy who is most assertive and confident wins, even when he is lying his ass off. > > Obama is more Vulcan than monkey, more’s the pity in this context. He seems to truly believe that winning a debate means presenting the facts and showing the reasonable conclusion. But he’s not in a debate, he’s in a “debate”, “debate” is a euphemism for hooting, chest beating and baring fangs. > > And so it goes. If you really love democracy, you marry her even though you know she is about half-crazy all the time and barking mad some of the time. Vulcan debates are calm and fact based, but we are monkeys. And we don’t play that. I agree with you here. But this is the thing. Sometimes you gotta get your monkey on. Sometimes, you really do. This was one of those times. He should dominated that stage better. He should have taken more control. He can do that and still present a reasoned argument. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive. As Barbara Walters said to Sheri Shephard when she said, “I don’t know whether or not the world is round. I’m too busy putting food on the table for my kids!” “Well you can do both.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/623 "2012-10-07T19:51:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jane would be good, but Frans de Waal [Wrote the book.](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_12?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=chimpanzee+politics&sprefix=chimpanzee+p%2Cstripbooks%2C305) Just mimicry. You know, primatologist see, primatologist do… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/624 "2012-10-07T20:10:31Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I agree with you here. But this is the thing. Sometimes you gotta get your monkey on. At least once a week! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/625 "2012-10-08T05:12:59Z")
Interesting that a guy who “lost” the debate has no problem using commercials that use the debate: [Drawing from debate, Obama ad hits Romney on taxes](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57526222/drawing-from-debate-obama-ad-hits-romney-on-taxes/) ---
**Author:** ![a35362](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@a35362](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/a35362)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/626 "2012-10-08T11:20:25Z")
OMG – one month to go! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/627 "2012-10-08T12:50:02Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Interesting that a guy who “lost” the debate has no problem using commercials that use the debate: > > [Drawing from debate, Obama ad hits Romney on taxes](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57526222/drawing-from-debate-obama-ad-hits-romney-on-taxes/) Just to be clear-- from factcheck regarding the debate: “Obama accused Romney of proposing a $5 trillion tax cut. Not true.” ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/628 "2012-10-08T13:00:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear-- from factcheck regarding the debate: > > “Obama accused Romney of proposing a $5 trillion tax cut. Not true.” Just to be fair- The Tax Policy Center vouches for Obama’s interpretation of Romney’s plan. And let’s get real, every Republican tax scheme involves cutting taxes for the wealthy. It’s the reason the party exists. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/629 "2012-10-08T13:46:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Just to be fair- The Tax Policy Center vouches for Obama’s interpretation of Romney’s plan. It’s true that Romney has been “less than specific” about which loopholes (aka, deductions) he would close, but the TPC looked only at the tax cut part of the plan, which they figured as costing $480B in 2015. Obama’s team simply extrapolated that number out 10 years and rounder up. [TPC Article](http://taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/Romney-plan.cfm) > [@](#): > > In his campaign for the Republican presidential nomination, Mitt Romney has proposed permanently extending the 2001-03 tax cuts, further cutting individual income tax rates, broadening the tax base by reducing tax preferences, eliminating taxation of investment income of most individual taxpayers, reducing the corporate income tax, eliminating the estate tax, and repealing the alternative minimum tax (AMT) and the taxes enacted in 2010’s health reform legislation. The Tax Policy Center (TPC) has completed a preliminary analysis of the Romney plan, based on information posted on the campaign website and email exchanges with campaign policy advisors. Because we have received no details on proposals to reduce tax preferences, the TPC analysis does not include those proposals. Emphasis added ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/630 "2012-10-08T14:34:40Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > [Here you go.](http://i.imgur.com/XThti.jpg) Great game elements! I saw about the middle third of a late-night rerun of the debate that night. So tell me how which of the drinking cues came true. (For all I know, maybe all of them?) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/631 "2012-10-08T17:12:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s true that Romney has been “less than specific” about which loopholes (aka, deductions) he would close, but the TPC looked only at the tax cut part of the plan, which they figured as costing $480B in 2015. Obama’s team simply extrapolated that number out 10 years and rounder up. But that, I thought, was precisely Obama’s point. He talked about the tax cut only in order to say that the proposal was currently imbalanced, that there was no way to “pay” for it. I understood him to mean that there were no specific offsets for the specific rate reductions. Without specific offsets, it would cost $5 trillion; the offsets will pay for that cost, but we don’t know how specifically Romney will offset that cost. Honestly I couldn’t figure out what factcheck’s objection was to Obama’s argument. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/632 "2012-10-08T17:16:28Z")
[Here’s the relevant lines from the debate](http://www.npr.org/2012/10/03/162258551/transcript-first-obama-romney-presidential-debate): > [@Obama](#): > > Governor Romney’s central economic plan calls for a $5 trillion tax cut, on top of the extension of the Bush tax cuts, so that’s another $2 trillion, and $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military hasn’t asked for. That’s $8 trillion. How we pay for that, reduce the deficit and make the investments that we need to make without dumping those costs on the middle-class Americans I think is one of the central questions of this campaign. > … > Governor Romney’s proposal that he has been promoting for 18 months calls for a $5 trillion tax cut on top of $2 trillion of additional spending for our military. And he is saying that he is going to pay for it by closing loopholes and deductions. The problem is that he’s been asked a — over a hundred times how you would close those deductions and loopholes and he hasn’t been able to identify them. So, Obama specifically acknowledges that Romney’s plan would supposedly be revenue neutral. His point is that, without those offsets, it amounts to a $5 trillion tax cut, and, let me quote him again, “The problem is that he’s been asked a — over a hundred times how you would close those deductions and loopholes and he hasn’t been able to identify them.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/633 "2012-10-08T18:30:37Z")
[http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/10/07/972501/gop-strategist-admits-romney-is-witholding-details-of-his-tax-plan-to-avoid-criticism/](http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/10/07/972501/gop-strategist-admits-romney-is-witholding-details-of-his-tax-plan-to-avoid-criticism/) You see, if he tells us the details of how this is all going to work, he’d just be playing into Obama’s plan. Despite the excruciating attention to detail and scrupulous avoidance of the usual “gimmicks”, if he releases the details he will be criticized! And that would be unfair, because he has already told us that it all works out perfectly, so what is our problem? > [@](#): > > Here is the problem. You guys won’t give him any credit for closing loopholes, because like you guys, he won’t name the loopholes. Why? Because you’ll attack him for doing it. You attack him for not giving you a little target… and then you attack him when you get the target. Wait, that’s rather different. What he appears to be saying is that the Dems are attacking Romney for not releasing the details, but if they do release the details, then the Dems will attack him for releasing the details. The supposed grounds for this attack is a detail they are not going to release, because that would be telling the Dems what the Dems are going to do. Crafty! If you don’t tell your opponent what he is going to do, he may not know what he is going to do until he’s done it, and then its too late! ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/634 "2012-10-08T18:56:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So, Obama specifically acknowledges that Romney’s plan would supposedly be revenue neutral. His point is that, without those offsets, it amounts to a $5 trillion tax cut, and, let me quote him again, “The problem is that he’s been asked a — over a hundred times how you would close those deductions and loopholes and he hasn’t been able to identify them.” Romney was pretty clear at the debate – it isn’t his job to come up with the cuts – that’s up to congress. Romney will just set the outlines “You guys have to come up with $5 trillion in cuts”, then let a broad bipartisan consensus of congress work out the details. Paul Ryan was asked “what if they can’t come up with the cuts, what is most important, your tax cuts or keeping them revenue neutral”. He didn’t even need to think – “tax cuts”. I think we can all see where this is heading… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/635 "2012-10-08T19:03:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Crafty! If you don’t tell your opponent what he is going to do, he may not know what he is going to do until he’s done it, and then its too late! They didn’t seem to like it much when Pelosi said we would have to pass Obamacare before we knew the details. But it is OK now! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/636 "2012-10-08T19:05:28Z")
I’m going to use this at the bank: “You loan me 1 million dollars and I’ll pay it back. Don’t you worry about how I’m going to pay it back! If I told you, you’d just pick it apart.” Drinks are on me when I’m a millionaire! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/637 "2012-10-08T19:08:23Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > Romney was pretty clear at the debate – it isn’t his job to come up with the cuts – that’s up to congress. Romney will just set the outlines “You guys have to come up with $5 trillion in cuts”, then let a broad bipartisan consensus of congress work out the details. Which is, needless to say, bullshit. It’s the equivalent of saying, “Let’s have an ice cream and cod liver oil party! I’ll bring the ice cream, you bring the cod liver oil.” He wants credit for lowering tax rates in a balanced fashion, but he doesn’t want the blame for the hard choices required to balance those lowered rates. Sorry, man. Nothing doing. Obama was, I think, very clear in calling Romney out for his weaselling. Perhaps he wasn’t hooting and baring his teeth or whatever, but his words were clear. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/638 "2012-10-08T19:11:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Obama was, I think, very clear in calling Romney out for his weaselling. Perhaps he wasn’t hooting and baring his teeth or whatever, but his words were clear. Sure, but Romney said it better than Obama, and that’s what’s important, right? (i.e. contributes the points needed to “win” the debate) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/639 "2012-10-08T19:14:01Z")
What’s emerging as important is that Mitt Romney wants to kill Big Bird. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602/640 "2012-10-08T19:38:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What’s emerging as important is that Mitt Romney wants to kill Big Bird. “A chicken in every pot!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-presidential-debate-10-3-2012/636602.md?page=33)