# The First Rule of Fucking with the Culture is...
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [August 17, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981 "2011-08-17T01:45:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/1 "2011-08-17T01:45:24Z")
You do NOT fuck with the Culture.
So I’ve finished _Use of Weapons_, _Consider Phlebas_, and now _Matter_…
What should I read next?
Are they all good?
Feel free to add more rules about fucking with the Culture as the thread progresses.
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### Author:  [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/2 "2011-08-17T02:00:19Z")
How do you like the ones you’ve read? I’ve only read _Consider Phlebas_, and while the concept of _Culture_ was interesting, the book seemed, well, pointless.
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### Author:  [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/3 "2011-08-17T02:41:48Z")
I probably enjoyed _Matter_ the least, due to the ending and some loose plot points. I enjoyed _Use of Weapons_ and _Consider Phlebas_ a lot more, although I can understand the “pointless” feeling, I still liked them.
The Culture itself seems to mostly serve as a useful counterpoint to the hellish conditions the members of Contact and Special Circumstances find themselves in (let’s go up against machines with antimatter bombs and access to the flames between the universes) and as a plot device that allows Banks to have his POV characters disproportionately influence the planets and societies they find themselves in. I’m not sure I’d want to read a book all about the Culture, but I like ones about the people the Culture sends to meddle in other societies.
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### Author:  [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/4 "2011-08-17T11:44:16Z")
The first rule is you don’t fuck with The Culture unless you have power over time itself.
Maybe read The Player of Games next. It’s good and it’s the next in the chronological order they were written.
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### Author:  [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/5 "2011-08-17T13:30:23Z")
“Player of Games” was my favorite. But it’s been years.
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### Author:  [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/6 "2011-08-17T14:29:27Z")
Too true; in general one should never fuck with a civilization that posesses knife missiles.
Love most of his work, but of the Culture novels I’ve read, _Excession_ and _Look to Windward_ left the least impression on me. _Inversions_, I guess, is technically a Culture novel, but the Culture has next to nothing to do with the actual story.
Don’t forget the non-Culture novels (but set in the more or less the same universe) _Feersum Endjinn_ and _Against a Dark Background_. Both are of some interest. FE in particular is perhaps Banks’ most wildly inventive story, and is a personal favorite, although the fact that at least a third of the text is written in fonetik Ingleesh makes it a hard slog for most.
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### Author:  [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/7 "2011-08-17T14:46:41Z")
I’ve read _Consider Phlebas_, _Use of Weapons_ and _The Player of Games_ and I think TPoG was my favorite of the three. It’s quite accessible and I’m a bit of a gamer so it really appealed to me.
I tried reading _Feersum Endjinn_ but I couldn’t deal with the phonetic speaking. The other three are quite accessible, though.
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### Author:  [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/8 "2011-08-17T15:13:39Z")
I’m a fan of Banks’ work, especially the Culture novels, but _Feersum Endjinn_ ‘wus to anoyink to reed’.
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### Author:  [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/9 "2011-08-17T15:57:21Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#):
>
> Love most of his work, but of the Culture novels I’ve read, _Excession_ and _Look to Windward_ left the least impression on me.
Those are my two favourites! So, basically, read them all.
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### Author:  [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/10 "2011-08-17T21:38:23Z")
Player of Games. By far his best book, as far as I’m concerned.
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### Author:  [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/11 "2011-08-17T22:02:52Z")
I enjoyed Excession, but not the other two culture novels I tried (can’t even remember their names now, something about a lazy gun?). I think he writes better as Iain Banks, but is still a bit hit and miss, with The Crow Road and Whit being my favorites.
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### Author:  [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/12 "2011-08-17T22:18:31Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#):
>
> I enjoyed Excession, but not the other two culture novels I tried (can’t even remember their names now, something about a lazy gun?). I think he writes better as Iain Banks, but is still a bit hit and miss, with The Crow Road and Whit being my favorites.
I think The Crow Road is the best thing he’s written in either of his guises. I’ve a huge soft spot for Espedair Street too, but that’s a very atypical book for him.
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### Author:  [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/13 "2011-08-18T00:54:13Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#):
>
> I think The Crow Road is the best thing he’s written in either of his guises. I’ve a huge soft spot for Espedair Street too, but that’s a very atypical book for him.
I love The Crow Road. Have you seen the British-made miniseries?
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### Author:  [@Arrogance\_Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrogance_Ex_Machina)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/14 "2011-08-18T00:57:21Z")
> [@markdash](#):
>
> I tried reading _Feersum Endjinn_ but I couldn’t deal with the phonetic speaking.
Banks is my favourite author, but FE made me feel all stabby as a non-native reader. I think I threw the book at the wall a few times, though given the book looks to be in ok condition still I couldn’t have thrown it all that hard. I just wanted to add my **AAAAARGHHHHHH!!!** about that book - carry on about all things Culture-related.
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### Author:  [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/15 "2011-08-18T00:58:37Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#):
>
> I love The Crow Road. Have you seen the British-made miniseries?
Yes, on original broadcast, and not since. The lingering impression is that it was pretty well done, and pretty faithful, but the actor who played Prentice wasn’t very good.
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### Author:  [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/16 "2011-08-18T01:36:40Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#):
>
> Those are my two favourites! So, basically, read them all.
Agreed.
I started with _Consider Phlebas_, and I will never forget the feeling of my mind being thoroughly blown as I got deeper and deeper into the Culture’s universe.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2011, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/17 "2011-08-18T05:53:59Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#):
>
> not the other two culture novels I tried (can’t even remember their names now, something about a lazy gun?)
That’s _Against a Dark Background_, and it’s \*not \*a Culture novel.
I recommend _Player of Games_ and _Excession_. If I were the OP, I’d have skipped \*Matter \*(did not like) and read _Surface Detail_ (liked a lot). Both similar in the protaganists being from very backwards …ahem …cultures, but the latter had more satisfying story.
Another recommendation, non-Culture: _The Algebraist_. Loved the Dwellers.
Although - what is it with Banks and rape? His books have been a bit rape-y lately.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/18 "2011-08-18T06:47:51Z")
> [@wevets](#):
>
> Feel free to add more rules about fucking with the Culture as the thread progresses.
I liked:
> [@](#):
>
> “You might call them soft, because they’re very reluctant to kill, and they might agree with you, but they’re soft the way the ocean is soft, and, well; ask any sea captain how harmless and puny the ocean can be.”
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### Author:  [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2011, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/19 "2011-08-18T08:41:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> That’s _Against a Dark Background_, and it’s \*not \*a Culture novel.
You’re right, I knew it didn’t involve the culture directly, but I mistakenly thought it was set in the same universe. I was also conflating it with the first culture novel, _Consider Phlebas_, which caused me some confusion. In my mind, Horza was in alliance with Lady Sharrow.
Possibly I should give another one a try sometime, but I don’t think it’s worth my while to re-read either of those two.
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### Author:  [@tanstaafl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanstaafl)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2011, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-rule-of-fucking-with-the-culture-is/592981/20 "2011-08-18T12:16:26Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#):
>
> You’re right, I knew it didn’t involve the culture directly, but I mistakenly thought it was set in the same universe. I was also conflating it with the first culture novel, _Consider Phlebas_, which caused me some confusion. In my mind, Horza was in alliance with Lady Sharrow.
>
> Possibly I should give another one a try sometime, but I don’t think it’s worth my while to re-read either of those two.
To be fair, AaDB _could_ be set in the Culture universe but the chances of the two even being aware of the other are extremely low.
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