# The First Terrorists in Palestine: A Timeline **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244 "2003-12-27T12:25:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Anti-Zionist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71e660/32.png) [@Anti-Zionist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti-Zionist)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/101 "2003-12-29T12:09:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > Israel would still have won. They were in no danger of running out of supplies. The US airlift would only have been decisive in the case of a long war. The weapons were loaded off the planes and shipped straight to the battlefield. This hardly suggests that Israel would have won without the airlift. Also, if Israel would have won anyway, why did Golda Meir panic and flee to Washington to plead for more tanks and planes? > [@](#): > > Hard to be more wrong than that. The Arab states have a lot more hardware than Israel, always have had, they just aren’t all that good at using it. The regimes that we supposedly prop up are just as virulently anti-Israel as any others, with the exceptions of Jordan and Egypt. \*\* Not true at all. If you take the quality of the armament into account Israel has a huge advantage in military hardware. Syria, for example, doesn’t even have modern thermal imaging or fire-control mechanisms on its tanks, which would make them all but useless when opposing merkavas. Its air-force is similarly decrepit. The same applies to Egypt. The numbers do not reflect the capability. The regimes the US props up are far more benevolent toward Israel in their behavior than they would be if they acted on the will of their people. The anti-Israel rhetoric is simply a means to placate the populace, which is seething. ---
**Author:** ![Anti-Zionist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71e660/32.png) [@Anti-Zionist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti-Zionist)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/102 "2003-12-29T12:22:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\*OK, **Anti-Zionist** … here’s your cite on the Buldozer incident. Seems the Arab witnesses claim it was outright murder, but > From [here](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/) > > So this case is very far from the cut-and-dried accusations of “murder!” that you leveled. > > Dani \*\* In the link you provided the American and British witnesses claimed it was outright murder, too. The other “witnesses” were not named. Every single identified witness has stated it was a deliberate act. That’s pretty cut-and-dried, but then again Zionists are inherently innocent according to their own logic. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/103 "2003-12-29T12:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anti-Zionist \* > \*\*Admirable restraint? As in running girls over with bulldozers because they protest a home-demolition?.. \*\* Whatshername commited ‘suicide by bulldozer’. She could have taken the monumental effort needed to step a few feet to the left or right, if she was so concerned with living. ---
**Author:** ![Anti-Zionist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71e660/32.png) [@Anti-Zionist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti-Zionist)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/104 "2003-12-29T12:35:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\*OK, I see you **have** brought up the moral and ideological points while I was spell-checking… > > Point by point: > > The american protestor run over by a bulldozer had, previously, tripped and fallen into a ditch and the operator couldn’t see her. Tragedy, not murder. I’ll get you a cite about the bulldozer incident a little later, when I have some more time on my hands. > > I’m glad you admit that the helicopter strikes actually have a **target**. Because the suicide bombings by the Palestinians sure don’t… ☹ I haven’t heard you ranting about those, though. Double standards, anyone? > > “Young American and British activists were shot and murdered there” 😕 Cite? > Dani \*\* Tom Hurndall, UK, was shot in the head by an IDF sniper while trying to protect a little girl. He is currently in a vegetative state, and will die if his parents decide to remove life support. Brian Avery, US, was shot in the face by heavy machine-gun fire from an APC. He is disfigured from the wound, but alive. Rachel Corrie, US, was killed by an IDF operated bulldozer. Excerpt from letter written by Tom Hurndall’s mother: The surgeon had told us Tom might not survive even a few days and that there was shrapnel still lodged in his brain. When I first saw him, there was a young Israeli girl beside his bed who kept repeating, “I am so sorry for my country” [http://www.news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=781552003](http://www.news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=781552003) ---
**Author:** ![Anti-Zionist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71e660/32.png) [@Anti-Zionist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti-Zionist)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/105 "2003-12-29T12:58:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \*I reckon this is where people like yourselves let yourselves down actually. My understanding is that only one girl has been killed by a bulldozer. Sad? Inarguably. But there remains a fair bit of unknown as to just how culpable the driver truly was in the context of the girl being very keen to get in the way of dozer with limited visibility. Still, it was a sad thing no doubt. But the fact remains, the count is one girl - not girl(s) as in plural. That’s semantics. Anyone can deduce that I was not attempting to quantify the action, but rather to bring it to light. To shift attention to that detail is irrelevant and does not change anything. For example, say I throw a rock at a duck and someone says “hey, cut it out! Throwing rocks at ducks is bad!” Can I then take this person to task for his use of the plural, and thereby justify throwing the rock at the one duck - not duck(s) as in plural? > [@](#): > > I’m happy to debate anyone about anything on this messageboard. If I learn something, that’s just dandy. So I put it to you **Anti-Zionist** - please? Tell me something I don’t know? Come on? Please… > > You see, as it stands, all I’m hearing is someone who already has a political position and they just wanna scream it down my throat. But man, I’ve been seeing that for at least 3 decades of my life now. So I invite you - try and do an **Aldebaran**. Now THERE is somebody who really lives the cause of the devout Islamic scholar. Sure, he/she has got some weird old ideas about preconceived prejudices on the part of most people in the Western World, but every now and then, **Aldebaran** surprises me and lets me in on a little gem I didn’t know. And it’s cool, you know? > > So come on **Anti Zionist** … I invite you… instead of just preaching… actually steer away from the earnest hyperbole and give us some real deal facts which would indicate your position is a tenable one. As it stands, I’m not learning much from you personally - but I have to at least thank you for starting a thread where I’ve learnt shit loads from all the other folks who have posted here. I am not debating on this forum to please you. I am doing so because I believe that Irael/Palestine is an important issue that needs to be debated. It will need to be debated until it is solved, and then perhaps even more to prevent its recurrence. If you don’t care for my opinions, that’s fine. If you learn something, that’s good too. Since you have learned from others in this thread, I feel that I have accomplished part of what I set out to do. Honestly, I respect the people on this forum. They are, for the most part, well-read, intelligent, and civilized, and I’m sure that I will learn a thing or two from them. People like this need to face the ugly truth about what is happening to the Palestinians, even if it is uncomfortable to do so. If it is upsetting to some people, so be it. It is upsetting to me, too. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/106 "2003-12-29T13:50:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anti-Zionist \* > \*\*Tom Hurndall, UK, was shot in the head by an IDF sniper while trying to protect a little girl. He is currently in a vegetative state, and will die if his parents decide to remove life support. Brian Avery, US, was shot in the face by heavy machine-gun fire from an APC. He is disfigured from the wound, but alive. Rachel Corrie, US, was killed by an IDF operated bulldozer. > > Excerpt from letter written by Tom Hurndall’s mother: > > The surgeon had told us Tom might not survive even a few days and that there was shrapnel still lodged in his brain. When I first saw him, there was a young Israeli girl beside his bed who kept repeating, “I am so sorry for my country” > > [http://www.news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=781552003](http://www.news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=781552003) \*\* The “cite” about Tom Hurndall is **remarkably** fact-free. A real “my post is my cite” type effort, with no link to any actual news coverage of the case. You provide no cite for the Brian Avery case. We’ve covered Rachel Corrie, yet you bring her up again, as a supposedly separate case. And I have yet to see your response to my question re: suicide bombings. Dani ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/107 "2003-12-29T13:51:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anti-Zionist \* > \*\*Honestly, I respect the people on this forum. They are, for the most part, well-read, intelligent, and civilized, and I’m sure that I will learn a thing or two from them. People like this need to face the ugly truth about what is happening to the Palestinians, even if it is uncomfortable to do so. If it is upsetting to some people, so be it. It is upsetting to me, too. \*\* A lovely sentiment, but I note the “I’m sure that I _will_ learn a thing or two,” future tense. Three pages and you haven’t yet learned anything from anyone’s posts? ---
**Author:** ![Anti-Zionist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71e660/32.png) [@Anti-Zionist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti-Zionist)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/108 "2003-12-29T14:14:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*A lovely sentiment, but I note the “I’m sure that I _will_ learn a thing or two,” future tense. Three pages and you haven’t yet learned anything from anyone’s posts? \*\* I learned quite a bit from reading a post by Tamerlane on another thread concerning the relative rise and fall of Arab intellectual achievement. I was not aware, for example, that Al Murabitoun was so old or that it was founded by Berbers. However, I’d guess that the current manifestation of Al Murabitoun is probably a reincarnation of the old movement. ---
**Author:** ![Anti-Zionist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71e660/32.png) [@Anti-Zionist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti-Zionist)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/109 "2003-12-29T14:34:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\*The “cite” about Tom Hurndall is **remarkably** fact-free. A real “my post is my cite” type effort, with no link to any actual news coverage of the case. > You provide no cite for the Brian Avery case. > We’ve covered Rachel Corrie, yet you bring her up again, as a supposedly separate case. > > And I have yet to see your response to my question re: suicide bombings. > > Dani \*\* Gee, I guess I assumed that anyone with an internet connection could google the name and find it for themselves, but if you must… Here’s another cite on Tom Hurndall with plenty of facts: > **["Not again": Eyewitness Joe Smith writes about the shooting of Tom Hurndall](https://electronicintifada.net/content/not-again-eyewitness-joe-smith-writes-about-shooting-tom-hurndall/4523)** > > "\[Tom and I\] even had a conversation that day about the dangers of this place, and how none of us really understood them or we wouldn't be here. I said that I still felt confident with my international status even after the recent violence against... Brian Avery: > **[Keluaran SGP, Togel Singapore, Data HK, Togel Hongkong Hari Ini - Keluaran...](https://partnersforpeace.org)** > > Kedua pasaran togel yang merupakan favorit dari para bettor Indonesia merupakan Togel Singapore dan Togel Hongkong. Sudah puluhan tahun pasaran togel ini melayani para bettor Indonesia dengan sangat baik. Seperti visi misi dari toto sgp dan toto hk... As for suicide bombings, they’re bad. Israelis should pull out of the occupied territories, stop smashing things, and let the Palestinians develop some infrastructure and a more legitimate means of retaliation. As it is, Palestinian policemen have no authority even over their own people. This is a direct result of the IDF’s policy of disruption. Of course, the tactic of terror bombings in Palestine was pioneered by Zionist terrorists prior to the founding of Israel. I started this thread in part to bring that to light. If the Zionists did it to achieve independence, what right do the Israelis have to condemn the Palestinians for doing the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/110 "2003-12-29T15:20:29Z")
Care to provide a **non** -biased site as a cite? Also - Pre-statehood bombings by Jewish organization (other than the Stern Gang - yes **they** were terorists!) were aimed at **specific** (generally military) targets. AND the Jewish leadership of pre-state Israel cracked down **hard** on both Stern and the **Irgun** (which was on the whole mor eof a guerilla outfit than a terror organization, but was too militant for comfort for many). Up to and including colloboration with the British Mandate - circa 1944-1946 - in rooting them out. I have seen no such behavior, nor even intent, on the Palestinians’ side. Dani ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/111 "2003-12-29T16:20:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\*Care to provide a **non** -biased site as a cite? > > Also - Pre-statehood bombings by Jewish organization (other than the Stern Gang - yes **they** were terorists!) were aimed at **specific** (generally military) targets. AND the Jewish leadership of pre-state Israel cracked down **hard** on both Stern and the **Irgun** (which was on the whole mor eof a guerilla outfit than a terror organization, but was too militant for comfort for many). \*\* You are minimising and downplaying the pre-statehood terrorism. It wasn’t confined to the Stern gang, and the Irgun in particular were psychopathic thugs just like Hamas are, responsible for a great many attacks aimed specifically at murdering civilians. It was them after all that invented the repulsive tactic of bombing civilian buses which sadly the Palestinians later learned to emulate. Some Irgun attacks: Nov 11th 1937, bombing of the Jaffa Street bus depot, 2 dead 5 injured Jul 6th 1938, bombing of a market in Haifa, 21 dead, 52 wounded Jul 15th 1938, bombing in David Street in Jerusalem, 10 dead, 30 wounded Jul 25th 1938, Haifa market bombed again, 39 dead, 70 wounded Aug 26th 1938, Jaffa vegetable market bombed, 24 dead, 39 wounded etc etc Such attacks are not only morally comparable to Hamas attacks they are morally identical. And far from being shunned by responsible Israeli society the men like Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin responsible for these and similar atrocities were feted and rose to the very highest levels of political leadership in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/112 "2003-12-29T16:42:55Z")
Y’know, I think the parts of my post that you **didn’t** quote are more telling than the parts that you did… But anyway: I think most of your list was Stern Gang attacks, but you may be right - I haven’t had time to look it up. But even if they were Irgun work, you are ignoring the _saison_ - the two years during which the (main-stream) _Hagana_ essentially **helped** the British try to root out **both Stern and Irgun** (That’s the part of my post that you left out - why?) And after statehood, Ben-Gurion pacified the remnants of Stern and Irgun with the well known drowning of the _Altalena_. And for well over twenty years the prime directive for the Labor party was “Without _Herut_ or _Maki_” - Herut being Begin’s party, and the precursor of the Likud. (Maki was the Communist party, incidentally). I see no attempt by Palestinain leadership to curb **their** terrorists as the _Hagana_ did in **pre-state** Israel (the other part of my post you didn’t quote) Begin and Shamir rose to power through the democratic political process. It took them 25 years to win an election - not exactly immediate and automatic “feting”. It’s not as though they continued to espouse or practice anything for which they could be barred from politics… The rise to power of the Right Wing can be seen as a result of the Yom-Kippur war. It had absolutely nothing to do with the Israeli-_Palestinian_ conflict. Dani ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/113 "2003-12-29T16:52:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anti-Zionist \* > \*\*Edwino, if you think the world will sit by and watch while the Israelis “cage” Palestinians for 50 years, you must be very pessimistic indeed. For the Zionists to continue their abuses, the United States will need to continue to support them for 50 years. Without American support, Israel would never have taken root. If it were withdrawn today, Israel would fail within a decade. This I find really interesting. If one were to have made this argument five or ten years ago, it would have been laughable. This is a new sentiment which is becoming increasingly common. It plays into the deepest fears of Israel. For years, a two-state solution was recognized as the only legitimate hope for peace by moderates on both sides. Negotiations since 1993 until this years’ road map have always been based on this premise. Israelis always feared that giving away land without a comprehensive peace treaty was a recipe for disaster. This was always verbalized as “Give them a foot, they’ll ask for a mile.” As in, if we give them Hebron and East Jerusalem today and there is still no peace, they’ll be asking for Yaffo and Haifa next. A funny thing has started to happen since the Taba negotiations. A two-state solution has become realizable. Now with the fence, it has become imminent. While you may not like the actual line of the fence, it has one purpose and that is to divide the country in two. And instead of scrambling to ensure a viable Palestinian state, rhetoric has taken a new slant: the one-state solution. It confirms my (and many Israelis’) deepest fears. The Palestinians and the Arab World won’t be happy with peace. They won’t be happy until Israel looks something like Syria. > [@](#): > > However, if you are a Zionist, which I will assume you are due to your cavalier and dismissive attitude toward Palestinian suffering, then you are actually an optimist. A blind one, perhaps, but an optimist all the same. I am a Zionist in the same ways as Martin Luther King was a [Zionist](http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-022-Martin-Luther-King-Zionism.html). I believe in the right of any group to live unperturbed. That includes the Palestinians. The only possible way this will be accomplished is with two states in the region. The Palestinians cannot lord over the Israelis, the Israelis cannot lord over the Palestinians. Ergo two states. I recognize the sad history of the Jews and the countless other times that living as an ethnic minority has been a recipe for disaster. Israel is an answer to 2000 years of Jewish persecution. Dissolving Israel for a multi-ethnic state runs counter to this goal. And please tell me when I have been cavalier towards the suffering of the Palestinians. I recognize their suffering but I place the blame for most of it on their inept leadership. Nevertheless, I firmly believe it is Israel’s job to end the occupation. But apparently, ending the occupation and building a Palestine is now not good enough for people of your viewpoints. Like I said, Anti-Zionist but not Pro-Palestinian. Just a question. You are concerned with three White peace protesters who have been killed or maimed by IDF soldiers. Never mind the inherent racism of singling those three out. How about the dozens of Americans killed on buses and in restaurants by Palestinians? According to this [PDF](http://www.house.gov/burton/RSC/PalestinianTerrorismFacts.PDF) (warning, Republican literature!) as of October, it has been 52 Americans killed and 83 injured since 1993. But of course, they were mostly Jews and therefore worthy of contempt. Because of course this meant that they were dual-loyalists and therefore “traitors to their own country, and traitors to humanity.” (Your phrase) > [@](#): > > As Americans, we need to ask ourselves whether we are willing to throw our lot in with Israel, a failed state that has made very few positive, and many negative contributions to the world. Are we willing to throw away all the progress we have made over the years in support of a country that institutionalizes racial supremacism and disregards the mores of the civilized world? I would only ask you to compare Israel to her neighbors. Compare Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians with Jordan’s treatment. Compare civil liberties for Jews in Syria versus Muslims in Israel. Compare Israel’s freedom of the press to Egypt. Lastly, compare Israel’s response to violent uprising to any other violent uprising in the region. There is absolutely no area on which Israel hasn’t blown away the competition. > [@](#): > > If Americans of many different races and cultures can live together, why can’t Jews and Palestinians live together under one government as well? Besides the fact that neither side wants this and desparately is trying to kill each other? That the Palestinians have been clamouring for independence for 37 years? That it would fall apart into civil war within minutes? Comparing any MENA political situation to one in the US is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/114 "2003-12-29T17:41:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\*Y’know, I think the parts of my post that you **didn’t** quote are more telling than the parts that you did… > …(That’s the part of my post that you left out - why?) > \*\* Because, as I wrote, you are downplaying and minimising pre-state terrorism and I prefer to get to the crux of it. Apart from minimising the terrorism to the Stern gang what I think you are overlooking is the degree to which the periods of Irgun-Lehi suppression by more responsible Israeli elements were dictated by tactical considerations rather then any great concern for arab civilians. Lehi was attacking the British even while Britain was engaged in a life or death struggle with Nazi Germany. This was obviously embarassing and politically damaging to the Israeli cause and naturally they were suppressed. When it became clear after the war that the British were withdrawing from the Mandate attacks on civilians resumed. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\* > But anyway: > I think most of your list was Stern Gang attacks, but you may be right - I haven’t had time to look it up. > \*\* They are all listed as Irgun attacks by Benny Morris who used the six volume Klauzner Institute history of the Irgun as his source. Since you recognise the Lehi were terrorists I did not feel it necessary to additionally list their attacks. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\* > But even if they were Irgun work, you are ignoring the _saison_ - the two years during which the (main-stream) _Hagana_ essentially **helped** the British try to root out **both Stern and Irgun** (That’s the part of my post that you left out - why?) > And after statehood, Ben-Gurion pacified the remnants of Stern and Irgun with the well known drowning of the _Altalena_. > \*\* I have addressed this above but to follow up on the “Atlalena”, if I recall rightly, this was motivated by a desire for a single armed force and that was to be the Haganah (then morphing into the IDF). The radicals wished to continue their own units and have their independent arms capacity. Terrorism wasnt the driver here but rather unified control. Ben-Gurion himself being another terrorist I dont see his action as being representative of any particular virtue in this regard. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\* > And for well over twenty years the prime directive for the Labor party was “Without _Herut_ or _Maki_” - Herut being Begin’s party, and the precursor of the Likud. (Maki was the Communist party, incidentally). > \*\* Do you think this was due to embarassment over their criminal past or just politics? The Labour party in my country isnt that fond of coalitions or its ideological opponents either. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\* > I see no attempt by Palestinain leadership to curb **their** terrorists as the _Hagana_ did in **pre-state** Israel > \*\* As the Haganah occasionally did, when it was tactically desirable. The bombs went off anyway. But occasional efforts that the PA has also made aside, they are no more serious about eliminating terrorism then you were in your day. Why should they be? Why on earth would they embark on a serious civil war for your sake? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\* > Begin and Shamir rose to power through the democratic political process. It took them 25 years to win an election - not exactly immediate and automatic “feting”. It’s not as though they continued to espouse or practice anything for which they could be barred from politics… > \*\* Oh come on, Begin was a party leader and a member of the Knesset from the very first election and was a minister at least as early as the 1960s. Its not like him and Shamir were in the gulag. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\* > The rise to power of the Right Wing can be seen as a result of the Yom-Kippur war. It had absolutely nothing to do with the Israeli-_Palestinian_ conflict. > > Dani \*\* I am surprised that you dont see any connection. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/115 "2003-12-29T19:55:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anti-Zionist \* > \*\*The weapons were loaded off the planes and shipped straight to the battlefield. This hardly suggests that Israel would have won without the airlift. Also, if Israel would have won anyway, why did Golda Meir panic and flee to Washington to plead for more tanks and planes? \*\* The airlift wasn’t decisive in saving Israel, and it should be noted that a massive airlift of ammunition and supplies to the Arab nations (primarily Syria) was undertaken by the USSR at the same time as well. From _Elusive Victory: The Arab-Israeli Wars 1947-1974_ by Trevor Dupuy: > [@](#): > > And while there was apparently serious concern in the Israeli High Command about the consumption of ammunition, and some controls were placed upon firing rates, the plans for the Israeli counteroffensives were made long before it was known that there would be a massive American resupply effort. In fact, it was discovered after the war that with the possible exception of one or two categories of ammunition, the Israelis never used up their prewar ammunition stocks and, thanks to the American resupply, actually ended the war with more ammunition on hand than when they started. As to tank resupply, while many tanks were sent to Israel by ship (arriving long after the war) only one planeload of American tanks reached Israel during the war. This included fewer than five tanks; probably not one of these ever got into action before the end of the war. > … > There is one critical fact, furthermore, that Arab complaints about the American airlift simply ignore. That is that a Soviet Russian airlift was supplying Israel’s enemies with weapons, equipment, and ammunition on a scale comparable with that of the United States to Israel, and that an even larger Soviet sealift was beginning to reach Arab ports before the war ended. While the United States had also begun a sealift, not only was it probably smaller in scale than that of the Soviets, it would not begin to arrive in Israeli ports until weeks after the end of the war. In other words, the American airlift support to Israel was at least offset by comparable Soviet resupply support for the Arabs. Dupuy lists estimated resupply airlifts (not including sealifts) from Oct. 9-24 as 815 sorties carrying 27,900 tons by the USAF and El-Al along with 56 combat aircraft, with Soviet efforts amounting to 935 sorties carrying 16,000 tons along with 206 combat aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/116 "2003-12-29T23:38:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eolbo \* > **…you are downplaying and minimising pre-state terrorism and I prefer to get to the crux of it.** Still wondering why the “crux” dates only back to the '40s or '30s. Why not cite [this](http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1929.php) as the start of “pre-state terrorism”? Or go back to the 1920 riots, or even deeper into the history of the region? There has still been no explanation from you or **Anti-Zionist** as to why violence must be roundly condemned on the Jewish side, and either ignored or excused on the Palestinian side - and how such incredibly one-sided views could possibly help lead to a peaceful solution of the conflict. I hope either of you will take the time to address this question. ---
**Author:** ![1stChristian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f1d935/32.png) [@1stChristian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1stChristian)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/117 "2003-12-30T01:14:34Z")
To reinforce a few interesting pts: Edwino is right on the money - life in Israel is 95% (I don’t want to be a picker and make it 97.53, okay?) peaceful, in almost everywhere you go, anytime you go, including the West Bank and Gaza. Ex.: one of my sons studies and lives in a kibouts, where beyond the fence adjacent to his bedroom window, lies Gaza. Israel is definitely Europe, esp Tel Aviv - 24/7 metropolis. Israel won the Independence War W/O American supplies; actually it got the few initial planes and arms from Czechoslovakia, under the explicit accord of the Soviet Union, as the aid which the Communist Block was willing to give to the anti-colonialistic struggle (remember that the then Palestine was under a British mandate, which was essentially a colonization of the area). It won the war against 15 Arab countries (it included the Saudis, the Morrocans and others…), a tiny, unofficial societal entity of 600.000 Jews; casualties - 3000 (5%); imagine 5% casualties in big countries, like USA, etc… Very important, even then, the Arab missed an opportunity, when a partition of the land was proposed in the UN Gen Ass’y and just then, the Arabs invaded the fledgling country. Other Isr’s here are invited to correct me if I’m mistaken in the various pts. The reason for not dismantling the settlements, even in times of left-wing governments, is simple and Noone Special said it, I think: Real-Politik: when you go to the suk, you better have something in your purse, otherwise you come home emptyhanded. No one is naive enough to think that the Pals will give a speck, w/o us being able to give them something in return, so the settlements definitely play a very important role in the future give and take; Int’l Relationships are like a grocery store: you have the coins, you got the merchandise. US and their support for Israel - Anti-Zionist, don’t make me laugh, man!.. (no offense intended, of course) No one is giving anything for nothing. You really think that the Americans support us b/c of our beautiful eyes? I’d love to believe it, and of course there is an ideological factor (religion, mainly) in the equation, but oil is oil and it is it that makes the world go round. If the inevitable happens and somehow the oil fails to stay in American/Western hands, then the formidable and almost, invincible, let me say, Israel (in the MidEast context, at least) will be unleashed like a mad dog. It happened once: in the '56 Suez Canal war, when France and England enlisted the Israeli (offered) help in trying, unsuccessfully, to overcome the nationalization of the canal by Egypt. Moreover, if you don’t know it, then let me tell you, that the IDF is perceived as an elite unit of the West, and during the cold War, Israel and its army served as the defending buffer for the Southern flank of Europe. So… ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/118 "2003-12-30T01:24:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > \*\*Still wondering why the “crux” dates only back to the '40s or '30s. > > Why not cite [this](http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1929.php) as the start of “pre-state terrorism”? Or go back to the 1920 riots, or even deeper into the history of the region? > \*\* The poster I responded to was talking of the Stern Gang, an organisation that was only created circa 1940, and of Haganah co-operation with the British Mandate authorities in 1944-1946 and since that’s the period under discussion thats the period I addressed. Yes, earlier (and later) periods are also relevant in understanding the conflict. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > \*\* > There has still been no explanation from you or **Anti-Zionist** as to why violence must be roundly condemned on the Jewish side, and either ignored or excused on the Palestinian side - and how such incredibly one-sided views could possibly help lead to a peaceful solution of the conflict. > > I hope either of you will take the time to address this question. \*\* There has been no explanation from you Jackmannii as to why I should defend a position that I have not expressed and do not hold. I am happy to defend or clarify my posts but I wont play with your strawman. As an intellectual exercise however you might consider swapping around Jewish and Palestinian in your paragraph above and seeing if you can satisfactorily answer your own question. Which is more to the point really given the repeated whitewashing of early Israeli terrorism in this thread. To wit: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\* > No one will deny that Israel was born in part due to terrorism. But that’s the past. The terrorism was also of a different nature. Israeli terrorism was the much lower grade terrorism that groups like the IRA employ. Mainly assassinations of occupation officials, the occasional “collaborator”, and sabotage. Palestinian terrorism mainly involves random killings of any Jews they can find. > > But once again, that’s the past > \*\* Or > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DSeid \* > \*\* > Irgun, on the other hand, fought a guerilla war in the main. It is notable how few of that list report significant civilian casulaties. > \*\* Etc. Personally I dont consider a systematic program of bombing civilian buses, cafes and marketplaces as the Irgun did, and which resulted in hundreds of arab civilian dead as either insignificant or as only “lower grade terrorism” that can be glossed over. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/119 "2003-12-30T01:45:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eolbo \* > **There has been no explanation from you Jackmannii as to why I should defend a position that I have not expressed and do not hold. I am happy to defend or clarify my posts but I wont play with your strawman.** Both you and **Anti-Zionist** are harping exclusively on terrorist acts by early Jewish groups, **Anti-Zionist** obsessively to further his agenda that Israel Evil, Palestinians Good. Once you expressly condemn mass violence against civilians by _any party to the conflict_ and stop posting in the “Ma! They started it first!” vein, I’ll be more inclined to take you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![1stChristian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f1d935/32.png) [@1stChristian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1stChristian)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244/120 "2003-12-30T01:57:40Z")
Eolbo, in no time was the early terror of the early Israelis addressed and focused expressly and specifically against civilians. The mistakes they did and condemned by the official establishments of the Jews, are in such an obvious contrast to what the Palestinians do, that I fail to see how you fail to see them. Let me explain: Hamas and Jihad and countless other terror Palestinian organizations don’t have any second thoughts in saying - as officila statemsnts to the media, no more, no less - that since they don’t have helicopters and jetfighters and tanks, they will continue to use the suicide living bombs of theirs, even in the heart of Israel and even against civilians in such innocent places as caffes, restaurants, wedding halls, etc. Moreover, no one denies, now, that if Arafat would say one, just one word, all this madness would stop, not tomorrow, but yesterday. So, this is, it seems, the official policy of the Palestinians. Can you really compare in all honesty sending a living bomb to explode in a pizzeria (the Sbarro incident in Jerusalem) on a Purim day when the place was crammed w women and kids and babies to what teh Stern did to achieve liberation from an avowed colonialist? Can you? Who else does such and/or did atrocities, but the Palestinians? And suppose the Israelis do, what you would call, atrocities, for how long would any other society restrain itself in the face of such barbarous danger? USA, France, Engaland, Australia, who? Why do you ask me to act as you think fit, when there’s no question in my mind that no one else would react differently. Anyone else would react immediately and w a violence that will eradicate the teror in its buds! Who is crazy enough to see its citizens killed daily and would do nothing? Now, and this is the most important thing here: the volume and the manner of the Israeli reaction is to be admired, in the face of the danger the country is facing although every Israeli will admit that mistakes are done. I regret them deeply and deplore them, but I think that all in all, Israel is doing the defending itself in a way which no one else does or did it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-first-terrorists-in-palestine-a-timeline/221244.md?page=7)