# The five billion dollar wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495 "2018-12-21T15:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bizerta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@bizerta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizerta)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/1 "2018-12-21T15:50:30Z")
Trump wants five billion dollars to pay for the wall. Why isn’t anyone saying, “Hey, Mr. President, you promised that Mexico would pay for the wall.”? We know Trump does not have the authority to spend Mexico’s money, but why doesn’t anyone call him on his promise. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/2 "2018-12-21T15:59:30Z")
I have some basic questions: There must be some kind of fence or wall in place now. How effective is it? If it is not 100% effective, then how bad is the problem, and is it worth spending billions on fixing it? (Trump wants 5B, but that’s just the start) ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/3 "2018-12-21T16:03:34Z")
He already has his set of excuses in place. “Oh, they will pay for it eventually”. “Oh, they will pay for it indirectly.” More empty shyster salesman BS that explains it just fine for his followers. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/4 "2018-12-21T16:14:46Z")
Trump already said that his new NAFTA deal would make so much extra money for the US that Mexico is paying for the wall. There. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/5 "2018-12-21T16:18:50Z")
> [@K364](#): > > I have some basic questions: > > There must be some kind of fence or wall in place now. How effective is it? Answer: [Not very](https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2018/11/15/border-wall-cameefit-u-s-workers/). > [@](#): > > “Overall, we find that the additional fencing had a very small effect on migration and an overall negative effect on the economy,” said Morten, an assistant professor of economics and faculty fellow at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research (SIEPR). “The wall was expensive to U.S. taxpayers – they paid roughly $7 per person – but saw little to no economic benefits as a result. Some even saw their welfare fall.” > > The wall did not significantly curtail migration, according to the research. Using data from Mexican consulates on the flow of adult Mexican citizens who migrated between 2006 and 2010, the researchers estimated that the wall expansion reduced the total number of Mexican-born workers coming into the United States by only 0.6 percent, roughly 83,000 people. > > Further analysis showed that the expansion of the wall largely harmed American workers. College-educated U.S. workers lost an equivalent of $4.35 in annual income, while less-educated U.S. workers benefited on average by only 36 cents. Taken together, “the costs far outweigh the benefits, even for low-skilled workers in the U.S.,” Morten said. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/6 "2018-12-21T17:07:30Z")
The big issue with fencing or a wall is the border is just massive, in some areas it cannot be effectively constructed (we actually have some parts of the border that are bodies of water, some are mountainous), and in areas where it is constructed the border is so huge that it’s not like we have Border Patrol agents watching every mile of the border. What this means is you often times have upwards of 20 minutes or more before Border Patrol shows up to get through the existing fencing. There’s a lot of ways to do this pretty quickly. Additionally, in several spots people have actually dug underground tunnels that authorities don’t detect for a long time and that smuggle lots of people in. It’s not impossible to make a border almost impossible to get through (look at the DMZ in Korea), but the costs/effort/negative side effects of such a thing would be enormous. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/7 "2018-12-21T17:11:55Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Additionally, in several spots people have actually dug underground tunnels that authorities don’t detect for a long time and that smuggle lots of people in. > > It’s not impossible to make a border almost impossible to get through (look at the DMZ in Korea), but the costs/effort/negative side effects of such a thing would be enormous. [Tunnels under the DMZ.](https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/inside-the-north-korean-tunnels-designed-to-move-30000-troops-beneath-its-border-with-south-korea/news-story/3a9e0f533bea64d8167ceeb02076bf3f) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/8 "2018-12-21T17:14:08Z")
> **[Definition of ALMOST](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almost)** > > very nearly but not exactly or entirely… See the full definition ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/9 "2018-12-21T17:24:20Z")
I’ve heard that not only is the current wall and fencing not effective, they are actually negatively effective. The roads they had to construct to get in to erect the barrier have made progress once inside the barriers much easier. So the immigrants can further into the U.S. more readily. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/10 "2018-12-21T18:49:05Z")
$5 billion sounds like a drastically low estimate. That’s around two thousand miles of border, a project that will take well over a decade, thousands of workers who must be housed, fed, protected, paid, etc., private property along the wall that must be acquired, and so forth. I’d be surprised if it were finished for anything less than $30 billion. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/11 "2018-12-21T19:03:44Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > Trump wants five billion dollars to pay for the wall. Why isn’t anyone saying, “Hey, Mr. President, you promised that Mexico would pay for the wall.”? > > We know Trump does not have the authority to spend Mexico’s money, but why doesn’t anyone call him on his promise. I say it to anyone who brings it up. Granted it’s usually me shaking my fist at the tv. But, hey, I do my bit. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/12 "2018-12-21T19:17:48Z")
Serious question…do we provide foreign aid to Mexico? (I assume we do). If we were supposed to give them, say $5b over the next 15 years, why can’t the U.S. just say “Nah, we need that money to build a wall.” I’m not saying I \*agree \*to such an approach (I don’t), but it would seem to solve a number of problems. It “finds” $5b without raising taxes or shifting money from U.S. funding recipients. Plus Trump could point to how Mexico was indeed paying for the wall. It seems so simple, I must be missing something obvious. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/13 "2018-12-21T19:19:08Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > Trump wants five billion dollars to pay for the wall. Why isn’t anyone saying, “Hey, Mr. President, you promised that Mexico would pay for the wall.”? > > We know Trump does not have the authority to spend Mexico’s money, but why doesn’t anyone call him on his promise. A lot of people are asking him that. The problem is, his base isn’t asking him that, and he only listens to his base. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/14 "2018-12-21T19:34:08Z")
> [@K364](#): > > I have some basic questions: > > There must be some kind of fence or wall in place now. How effective is it? > > If it is not 100% effective, then how bad is the problem, and is it worth spending billions on fixing it? > > (Trump wants 5B, but that’s just the start) It’s moderately effective, it is mostly there to keep drugs out. > **[Trump’s border wall would cost same as 1.5 aircraft carriers](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/apr/28/scott-peters/would-trumps-border-wall-cost-same-one-and-half-us/)** > > The debate over President Trump’s proposed border wall intensified this week, with opponents saying the barrier would be Trumps wall would cost $21B and $150M a year for maintenance. Of course it could cost more, maybe $70B. This is grandstanding. Trump could get the GOP to slip that $5B in for drug interdiction, and it would sail thru. ---
**Author:** ![ricksummon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ricksummon/32/3333_2.png) [@ricksummon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricksummon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/15 "2018-12-21T19:41:52Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > [Almost Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almost) [**Bob Page:** What do you mean, _almost?_](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb1oFzWmjGk#t=00m26s)😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/16 "2018-12-21T20:49:26Z")
> [@divemaster](#): > > Serious question…do we provide foreign aid to Mexico? (I assume we do). If we were supposed to give them, say $5b over the next 15 years, why can’t the U.S. just say “Nah, we need that money to build a wall.” > > I’m not saying I \*agree \*to such an approach (I don’t), but it would seem to solve a number of problems. It “finds” $5b without raising taxes or shifting money from U.S. funding recipients. Plus Trump could point to how Mexico was indeed paying for the wall. > > It seems so simple, I must be missing something obvious. It would seem you [give the Mexico USD 290 mln a year and it is for the anti drug trafficking](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/MEX)… (there are some useful graphics for comparisons). It seems a bit silly. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/17 "2018-12-21T20:57:03Z")
> [@divemaster](#): > > Serious question…do we provide foreign aid to Mexico? (I assume we do). If we were supposed to give them, say $5b over the next 15 years, why can’t the U.S. just say “Nah, we need that money to build a wall.” > > I’m not saying I \*agree \*to such an approach (I don’t), but it would seem to solve a number of problems. It “finds” $5b without raising taxes or shifting money from U.S. funding recipients. Plus Trump could point to how Mexico was indeed paying for the wall. > > It seems so simple, I must be missing something obvious. What you’re chiefly missing AFAICT [ETA: as **Ramira** just pointed out] is that [US aid to Mexico is given overwhelmingly for purposes that the US supports for its own benefit](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/MEX), chiefly involving law enforcement and the narcotics trade. (And with the new proposed multi-billion-dollar aid initiative, those purposes also embrace the tightening of Mexico’s southern border, which is partly aimed at reducing illegal immigration into the US.) The amount of money that the US gives to Mexico for purposes that might in the most generous interpretation be deemed purely “altruistic” is comparatively minuscule, maybe a couple million dollars a year. You’re not saving up for a border wall out of that kind of couch-cushion change. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/18 "2018-12-21T21:13:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s moderately effective, it is mostly there to keep drugs out. > > [https://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/apr/28/scott-peters/would-trumps-border-wall-cost-same-one-and-half-us/](https://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/apr/28/scott-peters/would-trumps-border-wall-cost-same-one-and-half-us/) > > Trumps wall would cost $21B and $150M a year for maintenance. > > Of course it could cost more, maybe $70B. > > This is grandstanding. Trump could get the GOP to slip that $5B in for drug interdiction, and it would sail thru. Seems like it would be more cost effective to just buy the drugs outright and then destroy them before they get to the US. Fights the war on drugs and no need for the wall. Anyone know the $$ value of the drugs coming across the border now? Is it anywhere in the neighborhood of $5B (not to mention the yearly maintenance costs thereafter)? Or is this whole wall/drugs thing a smokescreen for just keeping poor brown people out of the US? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/19 "2018-12-21T21:19:35Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > Trump wants five billion dollars to pay for the wall. Why isn’t anyone saying, “Hey, Mr. President, you promised that Mexico would pay for the wall.”? > > We know Trump does not have the authority to spend Mexico’s money, but why doesn’t anyone call him on his promise. > [@Hampshire](#): > > He already has his set of excuses in place. “Oh, they will pay for it eventually”. “Oh, they will pay for it indirectly.” More empty shyster salesman BS that explains it just fine for his followers. I think you all are being just a bit literal here. If a guy shoots out my window and I declare that “He will pay for that window!” and the next day I am at Home Depot buying a new window to replace it, should my wife ask why I am buying the window when I promised that the criminal would pay? The OP admits that we have no power, short of invasion, sacking, and pillaging to make Mexico directly pay up front for the wall. So the idea that there will be a payment or an offset down the road doesn’t seem like an excuse, but something implicit in the statement. Now, if we will or ever do that, who knows? But it is not like we should have taken that statement literally as everyone knows that it could not happen. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/20 "2018-12-21T21:29:00Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The OP admits that we have no power, short of invasion, sacking, and pillaging to make Mexico directly pay up front for the wall. So the idea that there will be a payment or an offset down the road doesn’t seem like an excuse, but something implicit in the statement. > > Now, if we will or ever do that, who knows? The “idea that there will be a payment or an offset down the road”, when we have no more power to compel any “payment or an offset down the road” than we do to compel payment up-front, is not “implicit” in the statement at all. It’s an empty promise, and it doesn’t become less empty just because you’re trying to apply it to some unspecified future time rather than to the present. > [@UltraVires](#): > > But it is not like we should have taken that statement literally as everyone knows that it could not happen. Typical Trump defense. His supporters praise him for being “straightforward” and “telling it like it is” until the falsity of his statements is fully exposed, at which point they switch to chiding his critics for having taken his statements “too literally”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=2)