# The five billion dollar wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495 "2018-12-21T15:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/261 "2019-01-10T17:20:20Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > … In favor of what Trump proposes, except that you don’t seem to realize that what Trump proposes is a 2000-mile wall at the border… This bit right here is what you got wrong, which is some kind of feat given how many times I’ve clarified it in this thread. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not “trying to deny it”, but I don’t think it’s the topic of the current thread (titled “The five billion dollar wall”) or the source of the shutdown impasse. President Trump has requested $5B in this budget to “build primary wall or physical barriers in the areas of greatest need” (from [a presentation the White House sent to congress four days ago](https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/president-trump-sends-letter-border-security/)). That’s not “a 2000 mile wall” like some here are pretending. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > … “The wall” (a full-border-length 2000-mile stretch of concrete wall) is not what this shutdown is about. It’s about $5B. That’s going to buy a bit more wall / fencing / physical barriers than we have today. … > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > … As I said then, this current discussion and the current shutdown revolves around $5B in funding for some physical barriers along the southern border, not a 2,000-mile wall. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The presentation he gave to Congress was brief. I suppose he was afraid that [Nancy’s recent penchant for getting lost](https://youtu.be/vuonBaYqplM?t=62) would work against him if he went into more detail. Here is some more detail for you: > > > [@](#): > > > > [$5.7 billion for construction of a steel barrier on the Southern Border to fund 234 miles of new physical barrier](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/congress-must-do-more-to-address-the-border-crisis/) > > If you follow the link, you’ll see that this is only one aspect of a multi-faceted effort including updating inspection technology at ports of entry, hiring more BP and ICE agents, enhanced facilities and supplies to accommodate those taken into custody, and hiring more immigration judges to work through the case backlog. > > But it’s probably more fun for you to pretend “his plan is one sentence”, huh? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Can you clarify if “234 miles of new physical barrier” is considered “the wall” or “other border security efforts” in the eyes of Dems? Given their position on the funding measures, it would seem to be the former, but given some of the quotes by **steronz** in this thread, I wonder if it might be the latter. > That probably hinges on the answer to the above. I’m “with the Dems” in that I don’t necessarily demand a 2000-mile-long 30-foot-high all-concrete “wall”, but OTOH, I’m “with the GOP” in that I’d prefer to see some improvements made. Something like 243 miles of new physical barrier sounds good to me. > I’m not really “worked up in a lather”, I’m pretty mellow actually. My preferred policy position is, as I already stated, “I would like to see border security be more of a priority for the federal government than it has been previously.” If the Democrats are fine with “other border security” taking the form of 243 miles of new physical (“steel-slat”) barrier, then you’re right that the Democrats and I agree, you can go tell Nancy and we’ll all go to the soup kitchen together. > > But that doesn’t seem to be the situation we have here. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/262 "2019-01-10T17:40:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ll give you a hint: If you start reading at post #183 and continue to the end, you’ll probably get most of the relevant bits and only have to read a couple of pages. It might save you from writing more foolish posts. The problem may be that you either have some fine fine nuance in your position that causes different posts to make me (and others apparently) think your position keeps changing… or your position keeps changing. For example: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In a word, “no”, it wouldn’t be my first choice. It’s also a _LONG_ ways down my list of things that I think the US should not spend taxpayer dollars for. Generally, I would like to see border security be more of a priority for the federal government than it has been previously. I’m not rigidly stuck on the idea that that has to mean a 30-foot concrete wall along every inch of the southern border (and neither is President Trump apparently). This makes me think that the idea of a wall just isn’t all that important if other things are being done to improve border security. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My preferred policy position is, as I already stated, “I would like to see border security be more of a priority for the federal government than it has been previously.” If the Democrats are fine with “other border security” taking the form of 243 miles of new physical (“steel-slat”) barrier, then you’re right that the Democrats and I agree, you can go tell Nancy and we’ll all go to the soup kitchen together. This makes me think that any deal of border security has to include some version of the wall, no matter what else is in the deal. I guess these positions make perfect sense in your mind, but when I look at two posts like this next to each other, I’m not totally clear how important a wall is to you. Especially after I made a comment that it seems like there’s a lot better things to spend money on for border security, which you seemed to take issue with… I’m left with the feeling that you don’t care about the wall that much but it would bother you if the Dems “won” on this issue. I suppose you may tell others to go reread the same posts that seem contradictory to many of us. Or you could just answer a question like, “If there was a bill that had $3.5 billion in new technology and agents (twice as much as last year’s funding) but no money for a wall, would Congressman **HD** support or oppose that?” ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/263 "2019-01-10T17:47:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This bit right here is what you got wrong, which is some kind of feat given how many times I’ve clarified it in this thread. I could be mean and point out that it’s no more a feat than misquoting a wikipedia article in such a way that you cut out a snippet of a sentence so that it looks like it says the exact opposite of what it really says, but instead let’s just focus on this: > [@](#): > > … “The wall” (a full-border-length 2000-mile stretch of concrete wall) is not what this shutdown is about. It’s about $5B. That’s going to buy a bit more wall / fencing / physical barriers than we have today. … You’re just wrong. Nothing about this is true. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/264 "2019-01-10T17:50:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > … “If there was a bill that had $3.5 billion in new technology and agents (twice as much as last year’s funding) but no money for a wall, would Congressman **HD** support or oppose that?” Oppose. Would Congressman Ravenman support or oppose $3.4 billion in new technology and agents and $0.1 billion for however many miles of steel bollard physical barriers that buys (not many, I imagine)? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/265 "2019-01-10T17:51:25Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > … You’re just wrong. Nothing about this is true. I’m confident that readers can see the cites I posted upthread (and repeated in post #261 for your benefit) and reach their own conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/266 "2019-01-10T17:53:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Oppose. Would Congressman Ravenman support or oppose $3.4 billion in new technology and agents and $0.1 billion for however many miles of steel bollard physical barriers that buys (not many, I imagine)? I wouldn’t have a problem with that. Would you support it? Further question: would you reopen the government while talks on border security continue? I would. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/267 "2019-01-10T18:00:05Z")
The best chance Trump had for his wall was when there was a deal on the table for billions for the wall in exchange for DACA. That was when the Republicans were in charge of the House. But Trump said no. Now the Democrats have the House. And Trump is still offering nothing in exchange for the wall. And the Republican-controlled Senate is doing nothing. Only the Democrats in Congress are doing something – passing bills to open the government at funding levels the Republicans already voted for. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/268 "2019-01-10T18:03:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I wouldn’t have a problem with that. Would you support it? That’s probably a bit of a lowball for me. I was mostly trying to understand if yours was a moral opposition to _ANY_ additional barriers on our southern border, or you just didn’t think the price was right. I suspect the two sides will eventually land somewhere in between the $5B and $1.6B originally offered by each side (although, there’s so much emotion wrapped up in it now, who knows). > [@Ravenman](#): > > … Further question: would you reopen the government while talks on border security continue? I would. No. Reopening the government would, I imagine, remove any incentive for the Dems to “negotiate” at all. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/269 "2019-01-10T18:08:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m confident that readers can see the cites I posted upthread (and repeated in post #261 for your benefit) and reach their own conclusions. Well gosh, I hope they clicked through and read for context. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/270 "2019-01-10T18:41:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This bit right here is what you got wrong, which is some kind of feat given how many times I’ve clarified it in this thread. Sounds like you’re starting to realize the Sisyphean nature of trying to explain/defend Trump policies. Getting a rational person to understand (let alone agree) is the boulder that keeps slipping away, though if they feel like mocking you especially cruelly, they might let you think you’ve _almost_ convinced them and you might succeed with just a… little… more… clarification… and, oops, down the hill again. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/271 "2019-01-10T18:42:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No. Reopening the government would, I imagine, remove any incentive for the Dems to “negotiate” at all. I think it is a despicable to take hostages during a political negotiation, especially when the hostages have literally nothing to do with the controversy. Deliberately messing with the livelihoods of ordinary people seems to be part of this psychopathy that has infected politics over the last decade or so. it’s not enough to have a disagreement – or even heated one – with someone who disagrees with you. Looking at the opposition (or in this case, just regular people who are engaged in some kind of public service or another) in a way that dehumanizes them into pawns who should be yanked around in order to get what someone wants is a deeply immoral act. It’s as though the political class has resolved that honoring the the phrase “my fellow Americans” with real action is now a betrayal of one’s expected first allegiance, one’s political party. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/272 "2019-01-10T18:46:23Z")
For anyone curious what’s going on here, this article may have some insight. [New GOP Thing Is to Pretend No One Is Talking About a Wall Except Democrats, as if We Are All Idiots With No Memory](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/01/republicans-democrats-obsessed-with-wall.html). … Yeah. Yikes. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/273 "2019-01-10T18:52:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s probably a bit of a lowball for me. I was mostly trying to understand if yours was a moral opposition to _ANY_ additional barriers on our southern border, or you just didn’t think the price was right. I suspect the two sides will eventually land somewhere in between the $5B and $1.6B originally offered by each side (although, there’s so much emotion wrapped up in it now, who knows). > No. Reopening the government would, I imagine, remove any incentive for the Dems to “negotiate” at all. But you do acknowledge that congressional Democrats are not in opposition to “_ANY_ additional barriers on our southern border,” right? I mean, they’ve been pretty clear that they are willing to fund fencing and other physical barriers, _where appropriate and effective and in addition to other appropriate and effective security measures._ They are currently unwilling to fund these things to the degree you’d prefer, but that’s a policy debate that can occur while the government is operational and Federal employees are not missing rent and utility payments. Right? We can take POTUS’ magic WALL off the table and discuss funding priorities like grownups? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/274 "2019-01-10T18:55:16Z")
> [@andros](#): > > But you do acknowledge that congressional Democrats are not in opposition to “_ANY_ additional barriers on our southern border,” right? I mean, they’ve been pretty clear that they are willing to fund fencing and other physical barriers, _where appropriate and effective and in addition to other appropriate and effective security measures._ > > They are currently unwilling to fund these things to the degree you’d prefer, but that’s a policy debate that can occur while the government is operational and Federal employees are not missing rent and utility payments. Right? We can take POTUS’ magic WALL off the table and discuss funding priorities like grownups? Yes, they already had said Ok to about a billion $ in border security measures, which included improving the already existing fence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/275 "2019-01-10T18:58:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No. Reopening the government would, I imagine, remove any incentive for the Dems to “negotiate” at all. This is insane! The only way to properly “negotiate” with Democrats is to shut the government down and hold it hostage? That isn’t negotiation-that is a hijacking of the government. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/276 "2019-01-10T19:00:57Z")
> [@andros](#): > > But you do acknowledge that congressional Democrats are not in opposition to “_ANY_ additional barriers on our southern border,” right? I mean, they’ve been pretty clear that they are willing to fund fencing and other physical barriers, _where appropriate and effective and in addition to other appropriate and effective security measures._ > > … I think Congressional Democrats have been unclear about what they’re willing to fund. The other day Pelosi was asked about it and here’s what she said: > [@](#): > > … She was asked whether there’s any scenario under which Democrats would accept “even a dollar” for new construction of Trump’s border wall. > > “A dollar? A dollar? Yeah, one dollar,” Pelosi told a group of reporters just off of the House floor. > > She later seemed to rescind even that offer. … [source](https://thehill.com/homenews/house/423803-pelosi-jokes-about-paying-1-for-trumps-border-wall) ETA: if she’s backtracked from that intransigent position and is now offering some number of billions of dollars for physical barriers, I’d be delighted to hear about it. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/277 "2019-01-10T19:03:15Z")
Yes. She said that about “Trump’s border wall”. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/278 "2019-01-10T19:07:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think Congressional Democrats have been unclear about what they’re willing to fund. So has Trump. Reports over the weekend say that Pence offered a lower number, but then Trump (while at the table with Schumer, Pelosi, etc) denied that Pence was authorized to make such an offer. > [@andros](#): > > But you do acknowledge that congressional Democrats are not in opposition to “ANY additional barriers on our southern border,” right? I mean, they’ve been pretty clear that they are willing to fund fencing and other physical barriers, where appropriate and effective and in addition to other appropriate and effective security measures. And to that end, Democrats signed off on last year’s funding for fixing fences and deploying more technology. It isn’t just talk, that’s what they voted for last year. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/279 "2019-01-10T19:16:51Z")
You forgot to remove the context, HD. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/280 "2019-01-10T19:38:40Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I could be mean and point out that it’s no more a feat than misquoting a wikipedia article in such a way that you cut out a snippet of a sentence so that it looks like it says the exact opposite of what it really says, … > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well gosh, I hope they clicked through and read for context. 🙂 > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You forgot to remove the context, HD. Enough. If you want to take shots at another poster, do it in the Pit. Not here. [/moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=15)