# The five billion dollar wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495 "2018-12-21T15:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/281 "2019-01-10T20:08:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think Congressional Democrats have been unclear about what they’re willing to fund. The other day Pelosi was asked about it and here’s what she said: > > [source](https://thehill.com/homenews/house/423803-pelosi-jokes-about-paying-1-for-trumps-border-wall) > > ETA: if she’s backtracked from that intransigent position and is now offering some number of billions of dollars for physical barriers, I’d be delighted to hear about it. There was a deal for what the Border Patrol asked for- a extra $1.1 billion for border security, which including fixing, improving and extending the fence already there. So the Dems are willing to pay for what the experts have asked for - reasonable border security. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/282 "2019-01-10T20:39:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There was a deal for what the Border Patrol asked for- a extra $1.1 billion for border security, which including fixing, improving and extending the fence already there. > > So the Dems are willing to pay for what the experts have asked for - reasonable border security. I hadn’t heard of this $1.1B. I’d heard the numbers $1.6B and $1.3B, and neither of those were described as “what the Border Patrol asked for”. Do you have a cite for this Border Patrol request? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/283 "2019-01-10T20:46:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I hadn’t heard of this $1.1B. I’d heard the numbers $1.6B and $1.3B, and neither of those were described as “what the Border Patrol asked for”. Do you have a cite for this Border Patrol request? The numbers bounced around committee to committee, but the important thing is the the Democrats were perfectly willing to spend a extra $1Billion on border security. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/284 "2019-01-10T21:28:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The numbers bounced around committee to committee, but the important thing is the the Democrats were perfectly willing to spend a extra $1Billion on border security. “The numbers bounced around committee to committee” is not a cite, but setting that aside for a moment, does “border security” include additional steel bollard barriers in your mind? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/285 "2019-01-10T21:40:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No. Reopening the government would, I imagine, remove any incentive for the Dems to “negotiate” at all. I see. So you’re willing to shut down the government, causing hardship for 800,000 federal workers, any time the President doesn’t get his way, as long as his party backs him? Helluva way to run a government. And I don’t want to ever hear another wall supporter bitch about the deficit. You don’t get to gripe about the deficit AND demand expensive boondoggles. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/286 "2019-01-10T22:04:42Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I see. So … More evidence in support of **Bone** ’s “so” rule. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/287 "2019-01-10T22:27:54Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > More evidence in support of **Bone** ’s “so” rule. It’s nice **Bone** gave you a new means of evasion. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/288 "2019-01-10T23:20:20Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > It’s nice **Bone** gave you a new means of evasion. **Bone** didn’t do it. You did. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/289 "2019-01-10T23:43:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I hadn’t heard of this $1.1B. I’d heard the numbers $1.6B and $1.3B, and neither of those were described as “what the Border Patrol asked for”. Do you have a cite for this Border Patrol request? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “The numbers bounced around committee to committee” is not a cite, but setting that aside for a moment, does “border security” include additional steel bollard barriers in your mind? The number did bounce around a bit in various bills but the $1.6B was [from the DHS FY19 budget request](https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/02/12/department-homeland-security-statement-president-s-fiscal-year-2019-budget). > [@](#): > > In FY 2019, **DHS proposes $1.6 billion to support the construction of 65 miles of new border wall system** , as well as an additional $164 million to support efforts to hire 750 new Border Patrol Agents and 153 support personnel. To enhance national security, public safety, and ensure faithful execution of immigration laws, the budget provides $5.1 billion for enforcement and removal operations and includes $571 million for an additional 2,000 ICE law enforcement officers and 1,312 support personnel. > [@](#): > > As part of the Administration’s plan for the border wall, the FY 2019 President’s Budget proposes $1.6 billion to support the construction of 65 miles of border wall system in one of the U.S. Border Patrol’s top priority areas of responsibility, the Rio Grande Valley (RGV) Sector, in southern Texas. These **priority investments** will have **the greatest impact** on gaining and maintaining operational control of the border in the RGV Sector. I challenge you to find mainstream Democratic opposition to that budget proposal. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/290 "2019-01-10T23:56:11Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > … I challenge you to find mainstream Democratic opposition to that budget proposal. Thanks for finding that. Do you not consider Nancy’s ‘I would give him $1’ “mainstream Democratic opposition to that budget proposal”? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/291 "2019-01-10T23:57:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Thanks for finding that. Do you not consider Nancy’s ‘I would give him $1’ “mainstream Democratic opposition to that budget proposal”? No. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/292 "2019-01-11T00:06:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > More evidence in support of **Bone** ’s “so” rule. Right, and here is where you could clarify. If a poster asks you what your position is, and you are very ambiguous and contradictory, and they try to sum up their understanding of it, and ask you if that is it, you can say yes, you can say no, or you could even elaborate on what it actually is. Bone’s “rule” is less a rule, and more of a dishonest debate tactic, allowing the person invoking the rule to attack the poster and put them on the defensive, allowing the invoker to feign offense at being misunderstood, rather than to actually engage in debate. What you are doing is evading. You said specifically that you are against reopening the government, as you feel that that would mean that would remove any incentive for democrats to negotiate. Taking your feeling for reality (which I disagree, but I can play along for the sake of argument), how would you sum up your position in regards to the president shutting down the government, and putting 800,000 out of a paycheck, as a negotiating position? Personally, I think that negotiations should be done over the actual facts and ideas. If you can’t sell your idea to the public, then you need to work on your idea better. If that doesn’t work, then shutting down the government until people are forced to accept your idea in order to prevent catastrophe is not a responsible thing to do. Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/293 "2019-01-11T00:06:22Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > No. Ok, [here is a letter](https://static.politico.com/86/70/7540b39f4ed09ee5aba267a81df3/ngo-letter-to-leaders-schumer-and-pelosi-re-dhs-budget-12-2f28-2f18.pdf) signed by a whole bunch of leftist groups. It says: > [@](#): > > Now is the time to truly say NO to Trump’s wall: no to $5 billion, no to $2.1 billion, no to $1.6 billion, no to $1.375 billion. And to reject any additional funding for detention beds, ICE and Border Patrol agents, or other harmful enforcement. Is the ACLU not “mainstream” enough for you? Do all those groups just represent the loony fringe? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/294 "2019-01-11T00:25:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Thanks for finding that. Do you not consider Nancy’s ‘I would give him $1’ “mainstream Democratic opposition to that budget proposal”? How? She was specifically answering a specific question regarding “Trumps wall.” She was not addressing border security, but one temper tantrum demand. How does that become opposition to a legitimate security funding proposal? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/295 "2019-01-11T00:30:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Ok, [here is a letter](https://static.politico.com/86/70/7540b39f4ed09ee5aba267a81df3/ngo-letter-to-leaders-schumer-and-pelosi-re-dhs-budget-12-2f28-2f18.pdf) signed by a whole bunch of leftist groups. It says: > > Is the ACLU not “mainstream” enough for you? Do all those groups just represent the loony fringe? Why are you shifting the goalposts? You went from “mainstream Democratic opposition” to “a whole bunch of leftist groups.” Those are not the same thing. They certainly share many beliefs, but you are ducking and weaving and changing your own position. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/296 "2019-01-11T00:30:26Z")
**steronz** , Your silence / sudden absence is disheartening, but here’s some more “challenge” material: [CNBC - Democrats dig in against border wall money after White House briefing on government shutdown](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/02/white-house-briefs-congress-on-government-shutdown-and-border-wall.html) > [@](#): > > … Democrats previously offered to put $1.6 billion toward border security — but not a wall as Trump proposes — in the spending plan. The White House then floated $2.5 billion in funding, but Democrats rejected that offer. Trump signaled Wednesday that he would not accept anything other than $5 billion for his proposed wall. > > In an interview for NBC’s “TODAY” show taped before the briefing, Pelosi unequivocally said Democrats would not approve money for the wall. > > “We can go through the back and forth. No. How many more times can we say no? Nothing for the wall,” the California Democrat said. … [Politico - Liberal groups push Dem leaders to take harder line in shutdown talks](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/28/democrats-border-wall-government-shutdown-2018-1076866) > [@](#): > > … Schumer and Pelosi have held firm on their bid not to give any new money to the president beyond current funding levels. The Senate Appropriations Committee had forged a bipartisan deal for $1.6 billion for fencing, but House Democrats panned it after the midterms and **Democratic leaders are now united around delivering the president no increase over last year’s fence funding**. … What do you think? Challenge resolved? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/297 "2019-01-11T00:34:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Why are you shifting the goalposts? You went from “mainstream Democratic opposition” to “a whole bunch of leftist groups.” Those are not the same thing. They certainly share many beliefs, but you are ducking and weaving and changing your own position. What do you mean? My position is that the list of undersigned organizations, who describe themselves as " immigrants’ rights, environmental, labor, faith, and progressive organizations" are in fact “mainstream Democratic” and fit steronz’ criteria of: > [@steronz](#): > > … I challenge you to find mainstream Democratic opposition to that budget proposal. What position do you think I’ve changed? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/298 "2019-01-11T00:35:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What do you think? Challenge resolved? Challenge to one stupid, pointless demand for a costly and anti-environment fixture across hundreds of miles driven by an idiot who is simply pouting that he is not getting his way is still not a challenge to legitimate security interests or the budget to address them. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/299 "2019-01-11T00:36:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Challenge to one stupid, pointless demand for a costly and anti-environment fixture across hundreds of miles driven by an idiot who is simply pouting that he is not getting his way is still not a challenge to legitimate security interests or the budget to address them. I guess this is you conceding the point? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/300 "2019-01-11T00:39:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What do you mean? My position is that the list of undersigned organizations, who describe themselves as " immigrants’ rights, environmental, labor, faith, and progressive > organizations" are in fact “mainstream Democratic” and fit steronz’ criteria of: Many of them are. Many more of them actually are in conflict with “mainstream Democrats.” I would expect a serious effort at discussion would refer to powerful members of the Democratic party as “mainstream Democrats.” Sweeping up any Left wing group and trying to pretend that that was what you really meant (but did not say) weakens any claim you have to arguing in good faith. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=16)