# The five billion dollar wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495 "2018-12-21T15:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/341 "2019-01-14T03:40:41Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Despite all Trump’s efforts, the majority of Americans oppose the wall and blame him for the shutdown, and his disapproval rating is up 5 points, according to [a new CNN poll](https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/13/politics/cnn-poll-shutdown-trump/index.html). The thing about CNN is that we have the internet. We can go back in time and review political statements made by other politicians. We can see that [Obama said it was a crisis](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/media-had-no-problem-calling-it-a-border-crisis-in-2014-under-obama) and media outlets dutifully repeated it. There was no push-back from Pelosi or Schumer. [They voted for the wall in 2013](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/democrats-were-for-a-wall-before-they-were-against-it/2019/01/10/9d114048-14f1-11e9-90a8-136fa44b80ba_story.html?utm_term=.66d8f034f4cf). What Obama said from same cite above: “We now have an actual humanitarian crisis on the borer that only underscores the need to drop the politics and fix our immigration system once and for all,” then-President Barack Obama said in the Rose Garden in 2014. “In recent weeks we’ve seen a surge of unaccompanied children arrive at the border, brought here and to other countries by smugglers and traffickers.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/342 "2019-01-14T04:04:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The thing about CNN is that we have the internet. We can go back in time and review political statements made by other politicians. > > We can see that [Obama said it was a crisis](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/media-had-no-problem-calling-it-a-border-crisis-in-2014-under-obama) and media outlets dutifully repeated it. There was no push-back from Pelosi or Schumer. [They voted for the wall in 2013](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/democrats-were-for-a-wall-before-they-were-against-it/2019/01/10/9d114048-14f1-11e9-90a8-136fa44b80ba_story.html?utm_term=.66d8f034f4cf). > > What Obama said from same cite above: > “We now have an actual humanitarian crisis on the borer that only underscores the need to drop the politics and fix our immigration system once and for all,” then-President Barack Obama said in the Rose Garden in 2014. “In recent weeks we’ve seen a surge of unaccompanied children arrive at the border, brought here and to other countries by smugglers and traffickers.” On the internet we can also point that in 2014 the number of people caught at the border was increasing, after that it dropped and if 2014 was a crisis for a few months, calling the current one is even more of a stretch still. > **[3 Charts That Show What's Actually Happening Along The Southern Border](https://www.npr.org/2018/06/22/622246815/unauthorized-immigration-in-three-graphs)** > > The number of people taken into custody at the southern U.S. border with Mexico has been decreasing since 2000. Economists say the reasons people choose to cross the border illegally are changing. As for the Pelosi and Shumer, that is mostly false: > **[Did Democrats reverse border wall position after Trump?](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/jan/09/donald-trump/trump-democrats-reverse-border-wall-position/)** > > In his call for a border wall, President Donald Trump said Democrats made a U-turn on immigration after he was elected p > [@](#): > > Our ruling > > Trump said Schumer has “has repeatedly supported a physical barrier in the past along with many other Democrats. They changed their mind only after I was elected president.” > > Schumer, along with tens of other Democrats including former President Barack Obama, voted for the Secure Fence Act of 2006, which authorized building a fence along about 700 miles of the border between the United States and Mexico. That’s the majority of the barrier in place today along the southern border. > > However, the fence was mocked as a “nothing wall” by Trump in the past and was far less ambitious, both politically and physically, than the wall Trump wants to build now. > > Finally, Trump says the Democrats no longer support their previous position simply because he wants it. But Democrats have actually proposed current funding for the fencing that was approved in 2006. > > We rate this statement Mostly False. So yes, “the fence was mocked as a “nothing wall” by Trump in the past and was far less ambitious, both politically and physically”. Besides that, one should notice that this is a bit of an avoidance of what **nelliebly** noticed, avoiding the asinine things that Trump is saying now does not make for a good argument. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/343 "2019-01-14T04:53:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > On the internet we can also point that in 2014 the number of people caught at the border was increasing, after that it dropped and if 2014 was a crisis for a few months, calling the current one is even more of a stretch still. > > [3 Charts That Show What's Actually Happening Along The Southern Border : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2018/06/22/622246815/unauthorized-immigration-in-three-graphs) looking at your own cite the numbers are in line with 2014 when Obama made the statement in my cite. We now have convoys coming to this country and it’s made worse by Democratic attempts to derail border control with sanctuary cities. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > As for the Pelosi and Shumer, that is mostly false: > > [PolitiFact | Did Democrats reverse border wall position after Donald Trump was elected?](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/jan/09/donald-trump/trump-democrats-reverse-border-wall-position/) Your cite has nothing to do with the fact that Pelosi and Schumer supported the wall. It also doesn’t reflect media attention given to illegal aliens stuck at the border. It’s a crisis but they can’t use the word in a sentence because it gives the appearance of agreeing with Trump. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/344 "2019-01-14T05:30:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > looking at your own cite the numbers are in line with 2014 when Obama made the statement in my cite. We now have convoys coming to this country and it’s made worse by Democratic attempts to derail border control with sanctuary cities. > > Your cite has nothing to do with the fact that Pelosi and Schumer supported the wall. It also doesn’t reflect media attention given to illegal aliens stuck at the border. It’s a crisis but they can’t use the word in a sentence because it gives the appearance of agreeing with Trump. Nah, it is clear that you are ignoring what Trump did not call it a wall. And the ones at Politifact concluded that it remains a mostly false statement for the reason that it was not the wall that Trump is planning now. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/345 "2019-01-14T06:20:22Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/346 "2019-01-14T12:47:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the fact that Pelosi and Schumer supported the wall. They did not support “the wall”. What you wrote is not true. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/347 "2019-01-14T13:57:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Your cite has nothing to do with the fact that Pelosi and Schumer supported the wall. That fence (or wall if you prefer) has been built and it’s complete. Why do you want to spend $50 billion to replace what was just completed? Are you falling for some Trump-like Florida real estate scam? > [@](#): > > It also doesn’t reflect media attention given to illegal aliens stuck at the border. It’s a crisis but they can’t use the word in a sentence because it gives the appearance of agreeing with Trump. Illegal border crossings are down 80%. What kind of bad thing goes down and then becomes a crisis? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/348 "2019-01-14T17:54:56Z")
The phrase “the wall” is now being used disingenuously as a straw man among detractors. there is no plan to build a 30-foot tall wall from gun to ocean. The plan on the table is to supplement the existing barriers (which work!) with about 240 miles of additional barriers, most recently described as steel slats. So, if you want to argue against that, have at it. But don’t be like childish Pelosi and Schumer and allow the concept of something wall-like for Trump (even though it’s more fence-like) short circuit the your the brain. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/349 "2019-01-14T17:56:16Z")
We’ll know what Trump means by a wall when he says it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/350 "2019-01-14T18:02:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We’ll know what Trump means by a wall when he says it. Evidently not. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/351 "2019-01-14T18:08:44Z")
But somehow \*you \*know. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/352 "2019-01-14T18:14:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The phrase “the wall” is now being used disingenuously as a straw man among detractors. there is no plan to build a 30-foot tall wall from gun to ocean. The plan on the table is to supplement the existing barriers (which work!) with about 240 miles of additional barriers, most recently described as steel slats. So, if you want to argue against that, have at it. But don’t be like childish Pelosi and Schumer and allow the concept of something wall-like for Trump (even though it’s more fence-like) short circuit the your the brain. [Stop letting them gaslight you](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/01/republicans-democrats-obsessed-with-wall.html). It’s okay. You’re not crazy. They really were asking for a 30-foot concrete wall spanning the border not long ago. You don’t have to accept them lying to you like this. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/353 "2019-01-14T18:17:31Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > [Stop letting them gaslight you](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/01/republicans-democrats-obsessed-with-wall.html). It’s okay. You’re not crazy. They really were asking for a 30-foot concrete wall spanning the border not long ago. You don’t have to accept them lying to you like this. Even if you’re correct, it’s “were”, past tense. It’s not what’s on the table now. The 5 billion has been just 240 miles of barrier. And as you may have heard, it’s now steel slats. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/354 "2019-01-14T18:20:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The phrase “the wall” is now being used disingenuously as a straw man among detractors. there is no plan to build a 30-foot tall wall from gun to ocean. The plan on the table is to supplement the existing barriers (which work!) with about 240 miles of additional barriers, most recently described as steel slats. So, if you want to argue against that, have at it. But don’t be like childish Pelosi and Schumer and allow the concept of something wall-like for Trump (even though it’s more fence-like) short circuit the your the brain. Wait, so did Schumer and Pelosi vote for that or not? If I wait another ten minutes and another plan comes along to place a bunch of hescos in the middle of the desert, are you going to say that Pelosi and Schumer voted for that, too? And then ten minutes later when the wall becomes a ditch, did Schumer and Pelosi vote for that, as well as the next fifteen stupid ideas that come along? > [@](#): > > Even if you’re correct, it’s “were”, past tense. It’s not what’s on the table now. The 5 billion has been just 240 miles of barrier. And as you may have heard, it’s now steel slats. Its funny how you make these points with a straight face, and fail to acknowledge that Trump is the worst negotiator in history. Three years ago it was a hundred foot wall over 4,500 miles of U.S.-Mexico border and Mexico paying for it all, now you’re seemingly please that Americans will spend billions for a worthless construction project where barriers already exist. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/355 "2019-01-14T18:20:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Even if you’re correct, it’s “were”, past tense. It’s not what’s on the table now. The 5 billion has been just 240 miles of barrier. And as you may have heard, it’s now steel slats. Sure it is. _wink_ ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/356 "2019-01-14T18:23:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But somehow \*you \*know. Yes. I guess you might say it’s magic. When I hear or read words I assign common meanings to them. So when I heard, “a wall, where practical” I took that to mean it’s not a continuous edifice. When I hear “the border patrol needs to be able to see through it, so we’re making it steel slats”, I kinda envision a strong fence-like structure you can see through made with, well, steel slats. Pretty neat, huh? Try it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/357 "2019-01-14T18:28:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Wait, so did Schumer and Pelosi vote for that or not? > > If I wait another ten minutes and another plan comes along to place a bunch of hescos in the middle of the desert, are you going to say that Pelosi and Schumer voted for that, too? And then ten minutes later when the wall becomes a ditch, did Schumer and Pelosi vote for that, as well as the next fifteen stupid ideas that come along? > Its funny how you make these points with a straight face, and fail to acknowledge that Trump is the worst negotiator in history. Three years ago it was a hundred foot wall over 4,500 miles of U.S.-Mexico border and Mexico paying for it all, now you’re seemingly please that Americans will spend billions for a worthless construction project where barriers already exist. The 240 miles of barrier proposed is not where the other effective barriers already exist. And it’s not worthless. The border patrol has said repeatedly that the barriers they have have been a huge help as a deterrent and a force multiplier. A stronger smarter barrier will be even more of a help. As far as what they voted for, they should all simply be voting for something less specific, with the details to be determined by engineers based on criteria from the border patrol and the terrain. But Pelosi has no been clear that she does not want $2 to go to an barrier that Trump wants. And the reason? well, Trump wants it. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/358 "2019-01-14T18:30:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Even if you’re correct, it’s “were”, past tense. It’s not what’s on the table now. The 5 billion has been just 240 miles of barrier. And as you may have heard, it’s now steel slats. No if. That’s literally correct. The republicans are trying really hard to gaslight us. It’s okay - we’re not falling for it, and we can help remind you that you’re not crazy, and that Trump’s rhetoric over the last two years wasn’t just something you imagined. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/359 "2019-01-14T18:31:41Z")
> [@andros](#): > > **HurricaneDitka** , I’d really like to hear your response to this: > > > [@k9bfriender](#): > > > > …You have the democrats, who had the position of being for what DHS wanted, 1.6 in increased funding, who approved and passed legislation to that effect. After the deal was agreed to, the deal changed on Trump’s side, with him now demanding 5.7 b for a wall. A very natural negotiation tactic in that scenario is to say, “Well, now you are getting nothing, as you can not hold to your end of the bargain that you made.” > > > > Then you have Trump, who got the increased funding that was asked for by DHS, who then was told by right wing media that he looked weak if he took the deal. So, after he has agreed to it, he changes it. In order to have a position, rather than appeal to voters, or appeal to reason or logic, he instead appeals to holding 800,000 people, along with pretty substantial parts of the economy, hostage, to get what he, not the voters, not Law enforcement, not DHS, wants. > > Clearly you feel this is a misrepresentation of the facts. Would you please enumerate which of the above statements is incorrect to your thinking? The “Clearly you feel this is a misrepresentation of the facts.” I don’t think I ever responded to that post by **k9bfriender** , let alone to express that I clearly feel it’s a misrepresentation of the facts. But, as food for thought, the DHS requests for $1.6 billion for 65 miles of new physical barriers was from early 2018. The request for $5.7 billion for 234 miles of new physical barriers was from much later in 2018. It’s possible that the situation changed in between those two requests, for example a surge of migration or a change in the nature of it. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/360 "2019-01-14T18:32:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But Pelosi has no been clear that she does not want $2 to go to an barrier that Trump wants. And the reason? well, Trump wants it. Actually it’s because Trump shut down the government for leverage and you don’t negotiate with terrorists. Maybe some kind of agreement would be possible if Trump released the hostages, but as is it would be morally reprehensible to give him what he wants - all it would do is legitimize these tactics. If it’s a good idea, we can debate the merits when the government is funded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=19)