# The five billion dollar wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495 "2018-12-21T15:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/361 "2019-01-14T18:34:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s possible that the situation changed in between those two requests, for example a surge of migration. No, Fox stopped talking about the caravan right after Election Day. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/362 "2019-01-14T18:36:12Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Actually it’s because Trump shut down the government for leverage and you don’t negotiate with terrorists. Maybe some kind of agreement would be possible if Trump released the hostages, but as is it would be morally reprehensible to give him what he wants - all it would do is legitimize these tactics. If it’s a good idea, we can debate the merits when the government is funded. That’s a valid argument. There is a counter argument to it, but it is completely valid. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/363 "2019-01-14T18:38:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > But, as food for thought, the DHS requests for $1.6 billion for 65 miles of new physical barriers was from early 2018. The request for $5.7 billion for 234 miles of new physical barriers was from much later in 2018. It’s possible that the situation changed in between those two requests, for example a surge of migration or a change int he nature of it. Sigh. > **[Border Crossings Have Been Declining for Years, Despite Claims of a ‘Crisis...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/fact-check-trump-border-crossings-declining-.html)** > > The president, vice president and homeland security secretary have said the surge of migrants illegally entering the United States has reached emergency levels. Here’s some historical context. We’re seeing a minor uptick after historical lows. And if it’s a good idea to invest more in border security, you can do it after the government is funded. There’s a far simpler explanation that doesn’t require us to ignore everything about Trump’s rhetoric over the last two years. But it doesn’t look good for him. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/364 "2019-01-14T18:40:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The border patrol has said repeatedly that the barriers they have have been a huge help as a deterrent and a force multiplier. And employees of the Trump Organization have spoken about what a fantastic businessman, philanthropist, and human being Donald Trump is. Why should I listen to employees who have traded their credibility to suck up to their employer? > [@](#): > > As far as what they voted for, they should all simply be voting for something less specific, with the details to be determined by engineers based on criteria from the border patrol and the terrain. I submit that you are not answering the question I asked for a very specific reason: you agree that Schumer and Pelosi never voted the way Trump says they did. But rather than agree that Trump has spewed another lie, you change the topic to the way you think things should work. Am I right? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/365 "2019-01-14T18:40:40Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > No if. That’s literally correct. The republicans are trying really hard to gaslight us. It’s okay - we’re not falling for it, and we can help remind you that you’re not crazy, and that Trump’s rhetoric over the last two years wasn’t just something you imagined. Okay. But it’s still “were”, past tense. Why are you so intent on grabbing on to something Trump said in the past while treating what he says now as kryptonite? And it might surprise you to learn that it is common that rhetoric used on the campaign trail, designed for sound bites and bumper stickers, often describes the future reality broadly, not literally. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/366 "2019-01-14T18:45:37Z")
If calling for a border-long wall is campaign rhetoric, Trump never stopped campaigning. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/367 "2019-01-14T18:45:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And it might surprise you to learn that it is common that rhetoric used on the campaign trail, designed for sound bites and bumper stickers, often describes the future reality broadly, not literally. [https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/trump-insists-all-concrete-wall-was-never-abandoned-894886.html](https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/trump-insists-all-concrete-wall-was-never-abandoned-894886.html) > **[Trump Insists Wall Was Never ‘Abandoned’ Despite John Kelly Claim](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/12/trump-wall-abandoned-john-kelly)** > > President Trump used Monday tweets to hit back at confusion surrounding his beloved border wall. So when does Trump shift from “metaphorical bluster” to “literal plans”? It wasn’t two weeks ago, or when the shutdown started, or when Trump insisted on either getting his funds or shutting down the government. Trump has been banging on about a literal wall for THREE YEARS NOW. And now we’re supposed to ignore that? It’s gaslighting. They’re gaslighting you. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/368 "2019-01-14T18:47:38Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Sigh. > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/fact-check-trump-border-crossings-declining-.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/fact-check-trump-border-crossings-declining-.html) > > We’re seeing a minor uptick after historical lows. And if it’s a good idea to invest more in border security, you can do it after the government is funded. > > There’s a far simpler explanation that doesn’t require us to ignore everything about Trump’s rhetoric over the last two years. But it doesn’t look good for him. Two things: 1. Somehow all these years of “investing in border security” has not resulted in a secure border. Trump, unlike pols of both stripes in intent in actually securing the border. 2. Without their feet held to the fire, nothing will change. Just look at how long this issue has been around (even before Reagan’s 1986 amnesty) with party leaders from both sides speechifying about a secure border. Kicking the can down the road again allowing all of congress to continue to give lip service about border security really doesn’t serve us very well. It helps _them_, but not the country, as it doesn’t result in a secure border. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/369 "2019-01-14T18:49:03Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > [https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/trump-insists-all-concrete-wall-was-never-abandoned-894886.html](https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/trump-insists-all-concrete-wall-was-never-abandoned-894886.html) > > [https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/12/trump-wall-abandoned-john-kelly](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/12/trump-wall-abandoned-john-kelly) > > So when does Trump shift from “metaphorical bluster” to “literal plans”? It wasn’t two weeks ago, or when the shutdown started, or when Trump insisted on either getting his funds or shutting down the government. Trump has been banging on about a literal wall for THREE YEARS NOW. And now we’re supposed to ignore that? It’s gaslighting. They’re gaslighting you. Again, why glom on to what he has said in the past, but ignore what he says now, with more specifics? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/370 "2019-01-14T18:49:08Z")
Then get the votes the normal way. You had them for two years, why didn’t anything happen then? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/371 "2019-01-14T18:50:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Again, why glom on to what he has said in the past, but ignore what he says now, with more specifics? … Seriously? Why did Trump shut down the government? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/372 "2019-01-14T18:52:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No, Fox stopped talking about the caravan right after Election Day. Not really. [November 29 - One-third of migrants in caravan are being treated for health issues, Tijuana health official says](https://www.foxnews.com/world/caravan-migrants-suffer-from-respiratory-infections-tuberculosis-chickenpox-other-health-issues-tijuana-government-says) [December 3 - Caravan organizer says most migrants not bad people, tells Trump: ‘Let these people in!’](https://www.foxnews.com/world/caravan-organizer-says-most-migrants-not-bad-people-tells-trump-let-these-people-in) [December 4 - Caravan migrants begin to breach border as frustration with slow asylum process grows](https://www.foxnews.com/world/caravan-migrants-breach-us-border-amid-anger-from-slow-asylum-seeking-process) [December 6 - Honduran woman, 19, in migrant caravan scales border wall to give birth in US after 2,000-mile trip](https://www.foxnews.com/us/honduran-woman-19-in-migrant-caravan-scales-border-wall-to-give-birth-in-us-after-2000-mile-trip) [December 12 - Migrant group demands Trump either let them in or pay them each $50G to turn around: report](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/caravan-migrants-in-mexico-demand-trump-either-let-them-in-u-s-or-pay-them-50000-each-to-go-back-home) [December 19 - Migrant caravan teens found stabbed to death in Tijuana](https://www.foxnews.com/world/migrant-caravan-teens-found-stabbed-to-death-in-tijuana) [December 23 - Caravan organizer Pueblo Sin Fronteras blasted by migrants over risky journey](https://www.foxnews.com/world/world-2018-12-23-group-that-escorts-migrant-caravans-draws-more-scrutiny-html) [January 9 - Migrant caravan members disappointed by President Trump’s tone during his national address on securing the border](https://video.foxnews.com/v/5987521244001/?#sp=show-clips) [January 14 (TODAY!) - New caravan forming in Central America: What can President Trump do to stop the pattern?](https://video.foxnews.com/v/5989213622001/?#sp=show-clips) I remember a bunch of libs on this site predicted that they would stop talking about it right after the election, but that’s one prediction they got quite wrong. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/373 "2019-01-14T18:53:33Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Then get the votes the normal way. You had them for two years, why didn’t anything happen then? Because the Dems had a minority in the Senate capable of filibustering legislation. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/374 "2019-01-14T18:53:38Z")
Trump’s first 2 years were a busy blur of smearing political opponents and the American Justice system. He just barley had time to fit in numerous rounds of golf. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/375 "2019-01-14T18:56:36Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > … Seriously? > > Why did Trump shut down the government? The government is shut down because Pelosi and Schumer do not want something to happen that will benefit Trump, even if it would help the country. as has been said, their hate of Trump is greater than there love of country. Or looking bad in the eyes of there increasingly leftist party. Perhaps you can answer my question now? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/376 "2019-01-14T18:56:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Because the Dems had a minority in the Senate capable of filibustering legislation. Ergo, let’s not even try? Fuck, dude, you could have put in the budget any year, and forced the dems to shut down the government. And it’d be their fault! You think they’d do that? Also, they can still filibuster, and now they have the house, ergo let’s do it now? No, that explanation makes NO sense and doesn’t hold up to even the barest scrutiny. Whoever sold it to you is lying to you. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/377 "2019-01-14T18:56:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Trump, unlike pols of both stripes [is] intent in actually securing the border. There are people who have donated a kidney to a total stranger who have been less generous than your assessment is to Trump. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/378 "2019-01-14T18:57:42Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Trump’s first 2 years were a busy blur of smearing political opponents and the American Justice system. He just barley had time to fit in numerous rounds of golf. That doesn’t change the reality of **HurricaneDitka’s** point. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/379 "2019-01-14T18:57:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The phrase “the wall” is now being used disingenuously as a straw man among detractors. there is no plan to build a 30-foot tall wall from gun to ocean. The plan on the table is to supplement the existing barriers (which work!) with about 240 miles of additional barriers, most recently described as steel slats. So, if you want to argue against that, have at it. But don’t be like childish Pelosi and Schumer and allow the concept of something wall-like for Trump (even though it’s more fence-like) short circuit the your the brain. You wrote that “Pelosi and Schumer supported the wall”. They did not support an additional 30% of steel slats. Do you understand why what you wrote is wrong? Or do you still believe that “Pelosi and Schumer supported the wall”. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/380 "2019-01-14T19:01:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The government is shut down because Pelosi and Schumer And I stopped reading, because no matter what you say after this statement, either the facts or the framing are so far off base they took a nosedive into the bullpen. Try again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=20)