# The five billion dollar wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495 "2018-12-21T15:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/401 "2019-01-14T20:06:11Z")
To repeat, a negotiation involves “give and take”. Trump has stated that he wants to open the government. So opening the government is not a “give”. That’s something both parties want. Trump wants a wall, and the Democrats oppose Trump’s wall. Trump wants the Democrats to agree to something that the Democrats oppose. In order to negotiate a deal to accomplish that, Trump would have to offer something that the Democrats support _but Trump opposes_. Trump has not offered any such deal. He’s offered nothing at all. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/402 "2019-01-14T20:06:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > A compromise involves give and take. Trump has offered NOTHING he’s willing to give. Trump had previously rejected an actual give-and-take compromise – DACA for wall funding. Now he’s just demanding wall funding without offering to give anything at all. That’s not a negotiation. That’s just a toddler screaming that he wants his toy _now_. Untrue. But when Pelosi shut down the discussion by saying she would not give anything at all for the barrier, then ended the discussion. And I’d bet Dana is totally on the table for Trump. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/403 "2019-01-14T20:09:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Untrue. But when Pelosi shut down the discussion by saying she would not give anything at all for the barrier, then ended the discussion. And I’d bet Dana is totally on the table for Trump. Trump already rejected the DACA for wall-funding deal. He’s offered nothing to the Democrats in exchange for funding the wall. On the other side, the Democrats have repeatedly voted to fund the government at bipartisan levels previously supported by the Republicans in the Senate. The Democrats are taking action to open the government at bipartisan levels, while the Republicans are doing nothing at all. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/404 "2019-01-14T20:13:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’ve heard tell that “there are better ways to secure the border”. But I’ve yet to be shown what those ways are. Thoughts? How about [“Fixing the asylum system, upgrading ports of entry, and tightening security checkpoints?”](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/01/there-are-good-ways-spend-5-billion-border-security/580186/) That do anything for ya? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/405 "2019-01-14T20:14:05Z")
The polls on this are very bad for the Republicans right now. The shift the blame to the Democrats gambit is not working. Trump and the GOP own this completely and that isn’t going to change. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-14/trump-took-responsibility-for-shutdown-and-voters-give-it-to-him](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-14/trump-took-responsibility-for-shutdown-and-voters-give-it-to-him) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/406 "2019-01-14T20:18:27Z")
Based on polling, the Democrats are overwhelmingly winning the PR/political battle on this shutdown. Further, they’re actually getting Republican votes for opening the shutdown at the bipartisan levels previously supported by both parties in the Senate. Their approach, so far, is winning, according to the polling. Trump and McConnell’s strategy of doing nothing is losing, per the polling. Logically, I would expect that a politician losing in the polls at almost a 2-to-1 margin would change their strategy, while the group winning in the polls would continue theirs. But it’s impossible to predict how irrational actors like Trump will behave, so who knows what he will do. Hopefully, at some point the Senate will decide to allow a vote on the bipartisan House funding bills, and then potentially vote with enough to override a Trump veto. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/407 "2019-01-14T20:24:12Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t think I said that. Here is the post you actually cited in your post: > I’m not seeing the quote you ascribed to me. Wrong poster, sorry. It was \*\*Magiver \*\*who is incorrect about Pelosi and Schumer supporting “the wall”. They didn’t. You’re just wrong about the shutdown being their fault somehow, when they support the same levels of funding Trump has previously signed off on, which the Senate just passed last month, and which the House just approved this month. Although right now I blame McConnell more than Trump. Yes, Trump has threatened to veto, but right now he has no bill to veto. The House passed a bill; it’s in McConnell’s court now. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/408 "2019-01-14T20:40:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > He is proudly right to own this: > > "The government is shut down because Trump takes his oath to protect the country seriously and knowing that an additional 240 miles of barrier will help make the border more secure (as per the border patrol) he cannot in good conscience allow the petty politics of the Pelosi and Schumer (whose #1 motivation is hate for him and #1 goal is to make sure he is not reelected as they try to mollify an increasingly batshit leftist party) to result in a less safe country. " Well, it’s good _someone_ is here to remind us what the latest right-wing talking points are. It’s all complete fucking nonsense, obviously, for reasons already brought up in the thread (Trump could have pushed for this funding at any time over the last two years and it makes no sense to do it now; opposing the wall was good policy before and now it’s both good policy and necessary to show that negotiations where the government is being held hostage will not be tolerated; Trump has shifted what he meant by “funding for the wall” _since the shutdown started_; Trump lies constantly and habitually and _cannot be trusted_ and so is pretty much worthless as a negotiating partner, et cetera). > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The offer now is $5.7B of physical barriers for re-opening the portions of the government that are currently shut down. Oh, so it’s a hostage situation. Okay. Then _no_ offer is good enough, because you do not negotiate with terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/409 "2019-01-14T21:19:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But perhaps you can help me. I’ve heard tell that “there are better ways to secure the border”. But I’ve yet to be shown what those ways are. Thoughts? The burden is on the proposers of the wall to show a cost benefit analysis as to why it’s worth the money wrt other options or vs keeping it in the taxpayer’s pockets. Dems are guilty of this laxity as well, and I’m not sure the previous fencing effort was worth it either. But of course our friends in DC care more about other things than they do about economic analyses. The cost-per-apprehension has ballooned. The previous barrier effort (that included both more expensive pedestrian fencing and cheaper vehicle barriers in about a 1.2:1 ratio) was based on what previous analyses pointed out as “operationally required”. In [FY2016](https://immigrationforum.org/article/border-security-america-act-2017-section-section-summary/), it cost $8,760 per apprehended migrant (up from $630 in 2000), 21 per agent (down from 182). You will never stop everyone – no country has managed this (although I understand Israel has come close). Here are other options to consider: [Eight Reasonable Border Security Proposals (That Are Not a Wall)](https://www.wola.org/analysis/eight-border-security-proposals) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/410 "2019-01-14T21:21:47Z")
> [@andros](#): > > How about [“Fixing the asylum system, upgrading ports of entry, and tightening security checkpoints?”](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/01/there-are-good-ways-spend-5-billion-border-security/580186/) That do anything for ya? All good ideas, which I am a fan of. But none of them will secure the border. We need a secure border. But since we’re talking about good ideas that will not secure the border I’d throw in being much tougher on employers of illegals and doing away with birthright citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/411 "2019-01-14T21:22:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > … There was no push-back from Pelosi or Schumer. [They voted for the wall in 2013](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/democrats-were-for-a-wall-before-they-were-against-it/2019/01/10/9d114048-14f1-11e9-90a8-136fa44b80ba_story.html?utm_term=.66d8f034f4cf). Perhaps. But I’d be more interested in this opinion if it came from a reputable source. Instead the opinion you cite was written by Marc A. Thiessen. Let’s glance at his resumé: [ul] [li] He was employed by the lobbying firm Black, Manafort, Stone and Kelly. Yes, _that_ Manafort.[/li][li] He was spokesman and senior policy advisor to Jesse Helms, the racist Senator who insulted black Senators at every opportunity, opposed voting rights for blacks, etc.[/li][li] He is presently employed by the Koch “think tank”, AEI.[/li][li] His main claim to fame is the pro-torture book _Courting Disaster: How the CIA Kept America Safe and How Barack Obama Is Inviting the Next Attack_ “based on a series of slipshod premises.”[/li][/ul] Is it conceivable that the opinion of this agent of Manafort, Helms and the Kochs has some validity? Sure! Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. But life is short, and I advise that the opinion can safely be ignored until a cite is found from a more respectable human being. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/412 "2019-01-14T21:23:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Trump already rejected the DACA for wall-funding deal. He’s offered nothing to the Democrats in exchange for funding the wall. > > On the other side, the Democrats have repeatedly voted to fund the government at bipartisan levels previously supported by the Republicans in the Senate. The Democrats are taking action to open the government at bipartisan levels, while the Republicans are doing nothing at all. The most recent attempt at negotiation ended when Pelosi said that even if he agree to end the shutdown, she would not give any money for any barrier. Sorry, this is on Pelosi now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/413 "2019-01-14T21:25:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The most recent attempt at negotiation ended when Pelosi said that even if he agree to end the shutdown, she would not give any money for any barrier. Why would that change anything? Opening the government is something both parties have stated they want. Why would you or Trump expect the Democrats comply with the demand for something _they oppose_, when Trump has offered absolutely nothing in return? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/414 "2019-01-14T21:27:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sorry, this is on Pelosi now. Haha no it isn’t. Read the polls. Just because you assert something does not make it so. I know you think it works for Trump so why not do the same thing, but it does’t actually work for Trump except with the true believers who will believe anything that comes out of his mouth as if it was gospel. He owns this in ever poll by a large margin. Your side is losing very badly on this issue. But by all means please proceed if you think its doing you any favors. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/415 "2019-01-14T21:28:03Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Oh, so it’s a hostage situation. > > Okay. > > Then _no_ offer is good enough, because you do not negotiate with terrorists. Okay, BPC, here’s the deal, the “terrorists” are going prevent your wife from going to work unless you kiss her and tell her how much you love her. Oh so horrible. ::shudder:: ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/416 "2019-01-14T21:28:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Okay, BPC, here’s the deal, the “terrorists” are going prevent your wife from going to work unless you kiss her and tell her how much you love her. > > Oh so horrible. ::shudder:: What? Are you high? This makes no sense whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/417 "2019-01-14T21:32:24Z")
The Democrats see Trump’s wall as a symbol of hatred and bigotry. They (we) believe it can’t be separated from his hateful rhetoric and history of bigoted assertions, like his spreading of a racist, evidence-free conspiracy theory for years and years, among many others. Thus they’re not going to support it without getting something very significant in exchange – some policy that they desire very much but Trump does not. And they’re winning the perception battle – polling shows that the public sides with the Democrats by a very significant amount (close to 2 to 1 margin in some polls). Trump isn’t really negotiating – he hasn’t offered anything at all. McConnell is doing absolutely nothing. Only the Democrats are actually acting to try and open the government – passing bills funding the government at bipartisan-agreed levels. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/418 "2019-01-14T21:32:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why would that change anything? Opening the government is something both parties have stated they want. Why would you or Trump expect the Democrats comply with the demand for something _they oppose_, when Trump has offered absolutely nothing in return? He was willing to break the impasse and then, 30 days later, negotiate. She refused to do it. That put it on Pelosi. When one party refuses to negotiate, it’s on them. And don’t both parties want a secure border? Why is making the border more secure something the Dems have to be pushed in to? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/419 "2019-01-14T21:34:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > He was willing to break the impasse and then, 30 days later, negotiate. She refused to do it. > > That put it on Pelosi. When one party refuses to negotiate, it’s on them. Trump broke off the negotiation. He never offered anything at all. He didn’t offer to “break the impasse” – he again demanded wall funding, while offering nothing in return. He walked away because he didn’t like an answer to a ridiculous question. Trump hasn’t done anything to actually negotiate, and he previously rejected an actual compromise deal – DACA for wall funding. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/420 "2019-01-14T21:35:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > We need a secure border. There’s no such thing. How much marginal cost will you accepted paying for a marginal increase in security? Then show us that the proposal hits the mark better than other options [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=22)