# The five billion dollar wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495 "2018-12-21T15:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/461 "2019-01-14T23:51:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/upshot/presidential-polls-forecast.html#other-forecasts](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/upshot/presidential-polls-forecast.html) > > At the end. The difference is that’s tracking popular votes, not the Electoral College. Wasn’t the difference in the EC a few thousand votes in 3 or 4 states? Wouldn’t that be within the normal margin of error in any poll? [Politifact.](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/dec/12/donald-trump/donald-trumps-electoral-college-victory-was-not-ma/) > [@](#): > > As of Dec. 12, with a dwindling number of votes remaining to be counted, Clinton is winning the popular vote by 2.84 million votes, or 2.1 percentage points. > > While there have been four previous occasions when a presidential candidate lost the Electoral College vote while winning the popular vote, **Clinton’s margin of victory is notably large.** ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/462 "2019-01-14T23:56:37Z")
The Trump wall has nothing to do with border security. The WALL heralded by Trump on the campaign trail is pure symbol. Depending on the mood and the audience, it might be 30, 40, 50 ft high. Sometimes it’s solid concrete. Sometimes it’s a solar wall. Sometimes it contains special defenses against catapults and ladders. Sometimes it’s see-thru. Always, it’s bullshit. It was intended to send a message to our neighbors and the world. A message that says…” We are weak and fearful people. Your skin color and cultural preferences are threatening to dilute ours. We are scared of your brown skin,spicy food,salsa music and large families. We are no longer a nation of inclusion, stay away”. And it’s not a message the Democrats want to send. It’s not a message I want to send. That is why I am against anything that Trump decides to call his WALL, whether is a 1000 mile 35 ft high concrete wall, 234 miles of fence, or a medium-sized dog. Trump has realized he lost on the WALL and will never get the 1000 mile long 35 ft high concrete structure he repeatedly described on the campaign trail. So his only chance to pull out a win lies (teehee) in redefining the WALL. So today 234 miles of fence exactly like the existing fence is now going to be the WALL. If that doesn’t work maybe he can get some funding for a couple of KEEP OUT signs and call those the WALL. And why are you Democrats so obsessed with this wall? All they talk about is the wall. It was always going to be just a little bit of extra fencing. No one ever said otherwise. Why are you so unreasonable? And by the way, Democrats are all hypocrites because their houses have walls. I’m so sick of the stupid and the gaslighting. And here’s a link for those of you that seem unsure about Trumps WALL rhetoric. Cause some of you can’t remember if he ever described what he meant by the wall. And, yes it said it was going to be 1000 miles long. Many many times. > **[Trump’s Evolving Words on the Wall (Published 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/18/us/politics/trump-border-wall-immigration.html)** > > A review of President Trump's statements on Twitter, in campaign speeches and during interviews shows that the president’s views on the border wall have shifted repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/463 "2019-01-15T00:03:05Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > … Wasn’t the difference in the EC a few thousand votes in 3 or 4 states? … The closest states (excluding NH, which was narrowly won by HRC) were Michigan (10,704 vote margin), Pennsylvania (44,292 vote margin), and Wisconsin (22,748 vote margin). You were only off by an order of magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/464 "2019-01-15T00:27:06Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > So now we know you’ve got zero quantitative analysis to justify this boondoggle. Don’t know what “we” know. But what you should know is that a trust the analysis that was done by the border patrol and the DHS that went into building their existing structures. I assume that the cost/benefit will be at least as good. And I’m fine with the cost going up some with the benefit going up. If you don’t think their past analysis is good, feel free to present your case. As far as the barrier that hopefully will be built, you might want to accept the reality that we do not have that information. Hell, we don’t even have a final design for the barrier yet. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/465 "2019-01-15T00:32:46Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > The Trump wall has nothing to do with border security. > > The WALL heralded by Trump on the campaign trail is pure symbol. Depending on the mood and the audience, it might be 30, 40, 50 ft high. Sometimes it’s solid concrete. Sometimes it’s a solar wall. Sometimes it contains special defenses against catapults and ladders. Sometimes it’s see-thru. Always, it’s bullshit. > > It was intended to send a message to our neighbors and the world. A message that says…” We are weak and fearful people. Your skin color and cultural preferences are threatening to dilute ours. We are scared of your brown skin,spicy food,salsa music and large families. We are no longer a nation of inclusion, stay away”. > > And it’s not a message the Democrats want to send. It’s not a message I want to send. That is why I am against anything that Trump decides to call his WALL, whether is a 1000 mile 35 ft high concrete wall, 234 miles of fence, or a medium-sized dog. > > Trump has realized he lost on the WALL and will never get the 1000 mile long 35 ft high concrete structure he repeatedly described on the campaign trail. > > So his only chance to pull out a win lies (teehee) in redefining the WALL. > > So today 234 miles of fence exactly like the existing fence is now going to be the WALL. If that doesn’t work maybe he can get some funding for a couple of KEEP OUT signs and call those the WALL. > > And why are you Democrats so obsessed with this wall? All they talk about is the wall. It was always going to be just a little bit of extra fencing. No one ever said otherwise. Why are you so unreasonable? And by the way, Democrats are all hypocrites because their houses have walls. I’m so sick of the stupid and the gaslighting. > > And here’s a link for those of you that seem unsure about Trumps WALL rhetoric. Cause some of you can’t remember if he ever described what he meant by the wall. And, yes it said it was going to be 1000 miles long. Many many times. > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/18/us/politics/trump-border-wall-immigration.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/18/us/politics/trump-border-wall-immigration.html) He did describe it as what you described early on. He also clarified as time went on, explicitly stating that it would not be a continuous concrete wall along the entire border. This you want to ignore, for obvious reasons. And what is being described NOW, and funding is being sought for is 234 miles of additional barrier. More fanlike than wall like, more akin to what i already there, but hopefully an even better design. So for those who want to argue against “THE WALL”, have fun. Meanwhile, I and others will advocate for the additional 234 miles of barrier that the border patrol says they want because it will help them. And I understand fully that the biggest reason people are against it is because, well, Trump is orange! ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/466 "2019-01-15T00:36:57Z")
Why are you suddenly ok with the president trying to do an end run around congress? Shouldn’t large infrastructure projects be debated by our duly elected representatives? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/467 "2019-01-15T00:39:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not interested in discussing such an irrelevant personal topic in this thread. > > I’m interested in discussing the factual sequence of events of this shutdown, in which Trump and his GOP allies made demands while offering nothing in return, executed a shutdown when those demands were not accepted, and are continuing to do nothing, and offer nothing, while the Democrats in the House pass bills opening the government at previously accepted bipartisan funding levels. Hahahahahahaha. All of a sudden we shouldn’t listen to the experts. Comedy gold, ii, comedy gold. Here’s the key question. Did Trump and Schumer and Pelosi meet to try to find a compromise? Answer: yes. Did Pelosi say that even if the government was open, she would not give any money for any barrier? Answer: yes. Did that end the negations? Answer: yes. If she was more more flexible, might she have gotten things that the Dems want and Trump doesn’t? Answer: yes. What are those things? Answer: we don’t know because she ended the negotiations by saying she would not compromise. Do you really find this that difficult to follow? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/468 "2019-01-15T00:43:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Hahahahahahaha. All of a sudden we shouldn’t listen to the experts. Comedy gold, ii, comedy gold. Enjoy this straw man argument, since this doesn’t dispute anything I’ve said (or even seem remotely relevant to anything I’ve said in this thread). > [@](#): > > Here’s the key question. Did Trump and Schumer and Pelosi meet to try to find a compromise? Answer: yes. Did Pelosi say that even if the government was open, she would not give any money for any barrier? Answer: yes. Did that end the negations? Answer: yes. If she was more more flexible, might she have gotten things that the Dems want and Trump doesn’t? Answer: yes. What are those things? Answer: we don’t know because she ended the negotiations by saying she would not compromise. > > Do you really find this that difficult to follow? You mean if she had entirely given into Trump’s demands while getting nothing in return, then the “negotiations” would be over? Maybe, but I don’t know why that is an interesting or relevant point. Do you really expect that Pelosi and Schumer would do exactly what Trump wants while getting absolutely nothing in return? Even when the polling currently blames Trump significantly more than them for the shutdown? That doesn’t seem like a realistic hope or expectation. If Trump were truly interested in negotiating, then maybe he’d consider actually offering something in exchange for what he wants. But he hasn’t done that. Meanwhile, Pelosi is passing bills funding the government at previously agreed upon bipartisan levels. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/469 "2019-01-15T00:44:36Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Why are you suddenly ok with the president trying to do an end run around congress? Shouldn’t large infrastructure projects be debated by our duly elected representatives? Sure. And if we’re talking about funding a national monument, go at it. If it’s built, fine; if not, fine. But when something touches our national security and sovereignty as a nation, and one party refuses to give any money for something that the border patrol and DHS says we need, you try to get it done by any means. You can’t let the childish hate your political opponents have for you result in a less safe country just because they think it will give you a win which might help you in the next election. And really, that is what is going on here. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/470 "2019-01-15T00:47:31Z")
So you’re willing to give up your essential freedom for a little bit of temporary security? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/471 "2019-01-15T00:49:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You. Not in this thread. But you do so repeatedly. Want to know what to think about climate? Listen to the experts. Want to know about any issue concerning black people, listen to black people. You deny this? The thing is, border patrol agents aren’t the experts on immigration. No more than TV weather forecasters are experts on climate science. Also, the only survey I’ve seen from border patrol agents is [this](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/), which says border patrol agents support “a wall system in strategic locations”. Which can very well refer to what we already have. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/472 "2019-01-15T00:49:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The offer now is $5.7B of physical barriers for re-opening the portions of the government that are currently shut down. Which is a stupid fucking deal. Trump WANTED the government shut down, and Republicans talked him out of it twice and failed once. A crazy guy - dislikes by even his allies - takes a hostage and demands a ransom, it’s on HIM if he shoots the hostage. Not on the one who didn’t pay the ransom! It wasn’t too long ago that conservatives saw themselves as the spear carriers for “personal responsibility” not to mention family values. Now, we are seeing themselves tied into knots over an incompetent compulsive liar, and how everyone else makes him do the things he does. It is shameful. I pity what conservatives have become. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/473 "2019-01-15T00:49:47Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Why are you suddenly ok with the president trying to do an end run around congress? Shouldn’t large infrastructure projects be debated by our duly elected representatives? $5.7B isn’t all that large of an infrastructure project these days. For example, California voters approved bonds for like $10B in 2008 for a high-speed rail line, and now cost estimates are closer to $100B. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/474 "2019-01-15T00:52:01Z")
A small donation to support the Klan is still a donation to support the Klan. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/475 "2019-01-15T00:52:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Enjoy this straw man argument, since this doesn’t dispute anything I’ve said (or even seem remotely relevant to anything I’ve said in this thread). Wrong. Part of your position was your claim that the barrier would not be effective. I pointed out the experts that disagree with you. Now suddenly, you want to ignore the experts. Funny stuff. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You mean if she had entirely given into Trump’s demands while getting nothing in return, then the “negotiations” would be over? Maybe, but I don’t know why that is an interesting or relevant point. Do you really expect that Pelosi and Schumer would do exactly what Trump wants while getting absolutely nothing in return? Even when the polling currently blames Trump significantly more than them for the shutdown? No, that’s not what I mean. How is saying, "I’ll give you $2.5 billion to fund the barrier, or $1 billion, giving in entirely? You might want to look up the words “entirely” and “exactly” while you have that dictionary out. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That doesn’t seem like a realistic hope or expectation. If Trump were truly interested in negotiating, then maybe he’d consider actually offering something in exchange for what he wants. But he hasn’t done that. Meanwhile, Pelosi is passing bills funding the government at previously agreed upon bipartisan levels. Maybe Pelosi should say what she wants. Then again, when she’s not willing to reciprocate, it’s kinda a moot point, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/476 "2019-01-15T00:52:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > $5.7B isn’t all that large of an infrastructure project these days. For example, California voters approved bonds for like $10B in 2008 for a high-speed rail line, and now cost estimates are closer to $100B. What’s the minimum price where you’d care about the president violating the constitution? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/477 "2019-01-15T00:52:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Which is a stupid fucking deal. … _shrug_ So don’t make it. That’s what Chuck and Nancy have done so far. Eventually someone’s going to back off. In the meantime, you can wring your hands on behalf of the residents of Loudoun County. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/478 "2019-01-15T00:53:29Z")
And it also turns out that the [Border Patrol Union Just Deleted a Webpage Saying a Wall Would Be ‘Wasting Taxpayer Money’](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/59v7k3/border-patrol-union-just-deleted-a-webpage-saying-a-wall-would-be-wasting-taxpayer-money). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/479 "2019-01-15T00:53:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > $5.7B isn’t all that large of an infrastructure project these days. For example, California voters approved bonds for like $10B in 2008 for a high-speed rail line, and now cost estimates are closer to $100B. At least that adds value to the economy. Speaking about how conservatives have betrayed their principles, what you’re suggesting here is that the most silly form of Keysianism should be adopted: perhaps I can sell you on a $4 billion program to have people dig holes and fill them back up again? After all, it’s only $4 billion. That’s about the same as Trump’s new Air Force One contract. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/480 "2019-01-15T00:53:41Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > A small donation to support the Klan is still a donation to support the Klan. Nonsense like this is why we can’t have nice things. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=25)