# The five billion dollar wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495 "2018-12-21T15:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/481 "2019-01-15T00:53:55Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > What’s the minimum price where you’d care about the president violating the constitution? What’s “violating the constitution” about the shutdown situation? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/482 "2019-01-15T00:54:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > _shrug_ So don’t make it. That’s what Chuck and Nancy have done so far. Eventually someone’s going to back off. In the meantime, you can wring your hands on behalf of the residents of Loudoun County. What are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/483 "2019-01-15T00:55:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s “violating the constitution” about the shutdown situation? Remind me which branch has authority over the budget and financial matters. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/484 "2019-01-15T00:56:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > He did describe it as what you described early on. He also clarified as time went on, explicitly stating that it would not be a continuous concrete wall along the entire border. This you want to ignore, for obvious reasons. And what is being described NOW, and funding is being sought for is 234 miles of additional barrier. More fanlike than wall like, more akin to what i already there, but hopefully an even better design. So for those who want to argue against “THE WALL”, have fun. Meanwhile, I and others will advocate for the additional 234 miles of barrier that the border patrol says they want because it will help them. And I understand fully that the biggest reason people are against it is because, well, Trump is orange! Read my link 1000 miles is not a continuous wall across the border. The border is roughly 2000 miles long. Trump repeatedly and consistently asserted that the wall would cover 1000 miles of border that was not protected by natural features. If I promise you 1000 dollars and give you $250, I’m not clarifying my original statement. I was lying when I made the original promise. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/485 "2019-01-15T00:58:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > At least that adds value to the economy. > > Speaking about how conservatives have betrayed their principles, what you’re suggesting here is that the most silly form of Keysianism should be adopted: perhaps I can sell you on a $4 billion program to have people dig holes and fill them back up again? After all, it’s only $4 billion. That’s about the same as Trump’s new Air Force One contract. I’m not “suggesting here” that anyone should adopt any form of “Keysianism”. What principle is it you think conservatives have betrayed? What does the shutdown have to do with personal responsibility, or family values? It’s an argument over the difference between $5.7B and $1.6B, about 0.1% of annual federal outlays, or about 169 (234-65) miles of steel bollard fencing. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/486 "2019-01-15T01:02:09Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Remind me which branch has authority over the budget and financial matters. The executive and legislative branches both have roles to play in the process. Again, what constitutional violations do you think are occurring in this current shutdown fight? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/487 "2019-01-15T01:03:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Wrong. Part of your position was your claim that the barrier would not be effective. I pointed out the experts that disagree with you. Now suddenly, you want to ignore the experts. Funny stuff. Let’s see a cite for the post of mine that you’re referring to, since I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about. If you’re gonna make claims about me, you should back them up with links to posts. > [@](#): > > No, that’s not what I mean. How is saying, "I’ll give you $2.5 billion to fund the barrier, or $1 billion, giving in entirely? You might want to look up the words “entirely” and “exactly” while you have that dictionary out. Again, why would you expect Pelosi to offer to give Trump something she opposes (wall funding), with nothing offered in exchange? That doesn’t sound like a reasonable thing to expect. Trump is making demands while offering absolutely nothing in return. > [@](#): > > Maybe Pelosi should say what she wants. Then again, when she’s not willing to reciprocate, it’s kinda a moot point, don’t you think? She wants something both parties have agreed to just a few weeks ago, and something Trump has said he wants - the government to be funded and the shutdown to end. That’s something that both parties want. She’s made that very clear, and has taken action in a bipartisan way to accomplish it. But McConnell does nothing and Trump does nothing. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/488 "2019-01-15T01:06:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The executive and legislative branches both have roles to play in the process. Again, what constitutional violations do you think are occurring in this current shutdown fight? What dollar amount are you OK with? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/489 "2019-01-15T01:07:48Z")
dollar amount for WHAT? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/490 "2019-01-15T01:10:44Z")
For the president to violate the constitution. Could Obama have shut down the government until Congress agreed to fund Medicare for all? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/491 "2019-01-15T01:11:39Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > For the president to violate the constitution. Could Obama have shut down the government until Congress agreed to fun Medicare for all? If Congress was incapable of overriding his veto, then yes, he could have. That’s the way our Constitution & government works. What Constitutional violations are you imagining? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/492 "2019-01-15T01:11:54Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not “suggesting here” that anyone should adopt any form of “Keysianism”. What principle is it you think conservatives have betrayed? > What does the shutdown have to do with personal responsibility, or family values? It’s an argument over the difference between $5.7B and $1.6B, about 0.1% of annual federal outlays, or about 169 (234-65) miles of steel bollard fencing. I suggest you re-read my comments while keeping in mind that I’m responding to two main arguments: that Pelosi is now responsible for the shutdown, and that paying billions for a public works project that has no economic utility is an unobjectionable thing. As I said, mainstream conservativism today has turned its back on probably every principle it held just a few years ago. Name a principle; I’ll bet it has been sold out. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/493 "2019-01-15T01:12:23Z")
You think what’s happening right now is by design? Wow ok. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/494 "2019-01-15T01:13:18Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > You think what’s happening right now is by design? Wow ok. I don’t think what’s happening right now is a violation of the Constitution. If you do, I hope you have more compelling arguments than “Wow ok.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/495 "2019-01-15T01:14:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If Congress was incapable of overriding his veto, then yes, he could have. That’s the way our Constitution & government works. What Constitutional violations are you imagining? As a general principle, do you believe Presidents can declare emergencies to promote spending on projects rejected by Congress? Such as, for example, President Warren declaring a state of emergency to allow noncitizens to use military hospitals for general healthcare needs, after Congress rejected proposals to do so. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/496 "2019-01-15T01:19:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think what’s happening right now is a violation of the Constitution. If you do, I hope you have more compelling arguments than “Wow ok.” Sorry, the thought if you having been OK with Obama shutting down the government to get MFA is just too much for me. I haven’t gotten past that yet. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/497 "2019-01-15T01:19:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Don’t know what “we” know. But what you should know is that a trust the analysis that was done by the border patrol and the DHS that went into building their existing structures. I assume that the cost/benefit will be at least as good. You have not presented this analysis because you’ve never even seen it. And I already posted (#445) a study showing that it didn’t do much to decrease off-checkpoint land border crossings. > [@magellan01](#): > > And I’m fine with the cost going up some with the benefit going up. How much for how little? You’ve already admitted that 100% is unattainable. Cost per benefit is asymptotic. > [@magellan01](#): > > If you don’t think their past analysis is good, feel free to present your case. That’s not how this works. You want to spend my money (or more realistically with the Pubs being in charge, my kid’s money), so that’s your job. Let’s see their past analysis. Not that it matters much, as I already posted one showing it didn’t do much. > [@magellan01](#): > > As far as the barrier that hopefully will be built, you might want to accept the reality that we do not have that information. Hell, we don’t even have a final design for the barrier yet. Here you’ve admitted to advocating for a boondoggle without knowing what it even is or whether it will work. I already posted (#454) a GAO assessment of CPB’s recent scheme. Despite having previously given them instructions on how to justify their plans, they’ve done next to nothing. They don’t need “all that information” to assess past efforts, locations, and the current barrier candidates, as well as both past and proposed technology deployments (e.g. drones, although IIRC they’re even worse wrt cost). Want to tax me a bit more to pay for some studies? I’m on board with that. Want to tax me (or borrow) to spend billions on as-of-yet unjustified governmental mystery meat? No thanks. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/498 "2019-01-15T01:25:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > As a general principle, do you believe Presidents can declare emergencies to promote spending on projects rejected by Congress? … “Can”? [Yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act#Emergency_powers), or at least “probably” for some definitions of “projects”. As for your specific hypothetical, I haven’t seen a specific emergency declaration law authorizing it, but am open to the possibility that one, or an interpretation of one, may exist. But you asked about general principles, and I generally think it’s best if Congress is involved rather than the President bypassing them. For example, when Obama implemented DACA after he got frustrated with Congress for failing to approve the DREAM Act, I was dissatisfied with that decision. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/499 "2019-01-15T01:26:43Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Sorry, the thought if you having been OK with Obama shutting down the government to get MFA is just too much for me. I haven’t gotten past that yet. “been OK” with is not the same thing as “a violation of the Constitution”. I would have been dissatisfied with Obama if he had done that, but it wouldn’t, AFAICT, have been a “violation of the Constitution”. Do you understand the difference between “things I don’t like” and “things that violate the Constitution”? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/500 "2019-01-15T01:27:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “Can”? [Yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act#Emergency_powers), or at least “probably” for some definitions of “projects”. As for your specific hypothetical, I haven’t seen a specific emergency declaration law authorizing it, but am open to the possibility that one, or an interpretation of one, may exist. > > But you asked about general principles, and I generally think it’s best if Congress is involved rather than the President bypassing them. For example, when Obama implemented DACA after he got frustrated with Congress for failing to approve the DREAM Act, I was dissatisfied with that decision. Well, I agree with you on DACA. In terms of process. So why are you fine with essentially the same process possibly being used for the wall? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=26)