# The five billion dollar wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495 "2018-12-21T15:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/501 "2019-01-15T01:29:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Nonsense like this is why we can’t have nice things. :rolleyes: I don’t want you to have what you consider “nice things”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/502 "2019-01-15T01:31:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, I agree with you on DACA. In terms of process. > > So why are you fine with essentially the same process possibly being used for the wall? I’m not “fine” with it (I’m assuming “the same process” here meaning a presidential emergency declaration to build the wall). I think it’s probably legal (probably even moreso than Obama’s DACA executive action) but it’s not something that gives me warm fuzzies. Overall I’d prefer to see Congress delegating less power to the Executive branch and taking more responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/503 "2019-01-15T01:46:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not “fine” with it (I’m assuming “the same process” here meaning a presidential emergency declaration to build the wall). I think it’s probably legal (probably even moreso than Obama’s DACA executive action) but it’s not something that gives me warm fuzzies. Overall I’d prefer to see Congress delegating less power to the Executive branch and taking more responsibility. Then you oppose Trump declaring an emergency to build a wall…? That doesn’t sound like what you’ve been saying. But it also doesn’t sound consistent with what you’re saying here. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/504 "2019-01-15T02:25:16Z")
Back to the OP for a bit. > [@bizerta](#): > > … Why isn’t anyone saying, “Hey, Mr. President, you promised that Mexico would pay for the wall.”? > … I believe that Trump has since clarified that when he said Mexico would pay for the wall that he wasn’t talking about a wall and that he didn’t mean that Mexico would fund it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/505 "2019-01-15T02:27:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > … That doesn’t sound like what you’ve been saying. … Which post(s), specifically, is this sentence referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/506 "2019-01-15T02:30:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Which post(s), specifically, is this sentence referring to? Are you just playing games? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/507 "2019-01-15T02:38:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you just playing games? No, I don’t recall ever signaling support for an emergency declaration. It’s possible it happened and I’ve since forgotten, but I can’t recall it. My question was a serious one I’d like an answer to. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/508 "2019-01-15T03:02:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sure. 'm sure you’ll be able to find it via google someplace. 😃 Have you at last stopped pretending? This is slapstick comedy gold. Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/509 "2019-01-15T03:17:11Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Per the Government Accountability Office: > [https://www.gao.gov/reports/GAO-18-614/](https://www.gao.gov/reports/GAO-18-614/) Oh, that’s gold. Here’s what I took away from the first part. I didn’t read to the end, I may go back later. They made all these dumbass prototype walls for Trump to look at and then ran all sorts of tests on them, like trying to climb them and looking at them. Then they ran real engineering analysis on them to see if they could actually be, you know, built for real. No, they pretty much all sucked. Plus the actual Border Patrol Officers finally had to contradict Trump and nix solid concrete as being totally stupid because you’d never know if there was a hoarde gathering on the other side ( situational awareness, they call it). And only two of the eight prototypes were see-through. So they went back to the drawing board to come up with some new designs, learning from the mistakes they made during their previous taxpayer dollar burning exercise. In the mean time, all new “Wall” construction is that Obama era fencing, because it was actually tested and approved and everything. What a clusterfuck. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/510 "2019-01-15T03:32:10Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > How much for how little? You’ve already admitted that 100% is unattainable. Cost per benefit is asymptotic.That’s not how this works. Hang on, now…I think we’re missing a very simple solution here. We _can_ get to 100% border security! And we can do it very simply. Not cheaply, but what’s money when it comes to full, 100%, impenetrable border security? _We simply build a bubble enclosing the entire CONUS._ Think of it as a prototype Dyson (hemi)sphere. We’ll have full employment for generations, and ensure no dirty foreigners ever enter our (ahem) sphere of control! We will be inviolable! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/511 "2019-01-15T04:09:11Z")
The defenses of Trump have reached the level of rubber-duck reality-denial that typifies defenses of psychic phenomena. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/512 "2019-01-15T05:26:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [source](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trump-calls-congress-secure-borders-protect-american-people/) Thanks. Fun read. The White House also doesn’t explain how the 234-mile border is going to resolve anything. And I got an especially big kick out of this: > [@](#): > > $4.2 billion for 52,000 detention beds, personnel, transportation, and detention alternatives We have 34,000 people in detention now. Trump thinks he’s going to need 86,000 beds? And what the heck are “detention alternatives”? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/513 "2019-01-15T06:02:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, I agree with you on DACA. In terms of process. > > So why are you fine with essentially the same process possibly being used for the wall? No, it is not “essentially the same process”. Obama instituted DACA as a matter of executive policy, not in the form of a National Emergency. It is not at all similar. The President controls what the government _does_, while Congress provides the funding and controls what the government _may do_. Congress may be able to limit what kinds of policy may be implemented and how much funding is available to the departments, but if they do not tell the president that he explicitly may not do a thing, he has a fair amount of latitude in being able to effect policy. In 2014, when the Republicans had control of both houses of Congress, they might have had the opportunity to tell Obama that he was not allowed to do what he did with DACA, but they had not the chops, and the policy remained in place until the Great American Nihilist attired and started shredding everything that his “Evil Predecessor” had done. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/514 "2019-01-15T07:31:13Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I believe that Trump has since clarified that when he said Mexico would pay for the wall that he wasn’t talking about a wall and that he didn’t mean that Mexico would fund it. Pretty much, right? Trump lies _constantly_. He lies habitually. He lies about things everyone can easily check and show he’s wrong in a fraction of a second. He relies on lies. How, exactly, do you _negotiate_ with that? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/515 "2019-01-15T16:04:57Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > No, it is not “essentially the same process”. Obama instituted DACA as a matter of executive policy, not in the form of a National Emergency. It is not at all similar. The similarity is based on using legal authorities that border on the obscure to unilaterally implement decisions that are normally the purview of Congress because of unambiguous text in the Constitution – in one case a spending decision, in the other case an immigration policy matter. Each unilateral exercise isn’t without basis in law, but at the same time, is usurping a decision that ought to be made in the legislative branch. I submit that it is mainly partisans (on either side) who would see one exercise as acceptable and the other as a travesty, if viewed purely as a process matter and setting the substance aside. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/516 "2019-01-15T20:57:58Z")
Well, it was process and not substance that made America great! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/517 "2019-01-15T21:00:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Each unilateral exercise isn’t without basis in law, but at the same time, is usurping a decision that ought to be made in the legislative branch. Ought? Perhaps so, but the legislative branch also \*ought \*to do their own duty. What does a President do when that is not the case? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/518 "2019-01-15T21:04:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Ought? Perhaps so, but the legislative branch also \*ought \*to do their own duty. What does a President do when that is not the case? Why, seize power if it is someone you agree with, because they can’t let a do-nothing Congress stand in the way of the President’s agenda. Or resign in disgrace if it is someone you don’t agree with, because a President who can’t work with Congress is a failure. At least, I think that’s how quite a few people in this thread would answer (under the influence of sodium thiopental, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/519 "2019-01-15T22:36:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not “fine” with it (I’m assuming “the same process” here meaning a presidential emergency declaration to build the wall). I think it’s probably legal (probably even moreso than Obama’s DACA executive action) but it’s not something that gives me warm fuzzies. Overall I’d prefer to see Congress delegating less power to the Executive branch and taking more responsibility. You don’t think the President using money for a purpose that it hasn’t been appropriated for is a direct violation of Article 1, Section 9, Clause 7? Regarding DACA, I understand the argument that it potentially violates the take care clause even though courts refused to rule on it. I can also see the counter-argument that Obama could claim he was faithfully executing the law and claim Chevron deference as the execution was only deferred. There are many examples where the executive branch has deferred legal actions due to administration priorities or resources. Trump’s argument that he can appropriate money for a purpose that has been expressly denied by the congress seems a much more egregious violation of the law to me. Explain to me why you think it is “more legal.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/520 "2019-01-15T22:51:42Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > You don’t think the President using money for a purpose that it hasn’t been appropriated for is a direct violation of Article 1, Section 9, Clause 7? Regarding DACA, I understand the argument that it potentially violates the take care clause even though courts refused to rule on it. I can also see the counter-argument that Obama could claim he was faithfully executing the law and claim Chevron deference as the execution was only deferred. There are many examples where the executive branch has deferred legal actions due to administration priorities or resources. > > Trump’s argument that he can appropriate money for a purpose that has been expressly denied by the congress seems a much more egregious violation of the law to me. Explain to me why you think it is “more legal.” To your first question: No, I don’t. [10 U.S. Code § 2808 - Construction authority in the event of a declaration of war or national emergency](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/2808) > [@](#): > > (a) In the event of a declaration of war or the declaration by the President of a national emergency in accordance with the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1601 et seq.) that requires use of the armed forces, the Secretary of Defense, without regard to any other provision of law, may undertake military construction projects, and may authorize the Secretaries of the military departments to undertake military construction projects, not otherwise authorized by law that are necessary to support such use of the armed forces. Such projects may be undertaken only within the total amount of funds that have been appropriated for military construction, including funds appropriated for family housing, that have not been obligated. … I suspect there would be a great deal of court wrangling over the phrase “that are necessary to support such use of the armed forces”, but given that troops have been recently deployed to the border, I don’t find it to be an unreasonable interpretation. I’m curious about something: you used the phrase “a purpose that has been expressly denied by the congress”. What did you mean by that? Just a failure to pass Trump’s $5.7B funding request, similar to how Congress didn’t pass the DREAM Act? Or did they pass some language along the lines of “no money shall be used for \_\_\_” somewhere? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=27)