# The five billion dollar wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495 "2018-12-21T15:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/61 "2018-12-28T03:27:27Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > 3 ) 85% of Mexican exports go to the USA. That’s a very high number, they need us, and we give them millions in aid. As noted earlier in this thread, the vast majority of the aid we “give” to Mexico is devoted to purposes that are directly important to the US, such as fighting illegal drug trafficking. Withdrawing that funding would just be cutting off our own nose to spite Mexico’s face. And as **Stranger** pointed out, the chief reason that Mexico sends us most of their exports is because of the advantageous terms established by the North American **FREE** Trade Agreement or NAFTA. If the US pigheadedly insists on imposing tariffs on Mexican goods, contrary to the intent of NAFTA, then Mexico will no longer have a financial incentive to send most of their goods to us rather than elsewhere. They don’t “need” us as a primary trade partner if we’re not giving them a better deal than they can get from somebody else. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/62 "2018-12-28T03:37:16Z")
And $5 billion is just a down payment. All it gets you is a half finished project. If you are considering the amount of tariffs you’d need to extract the cost, you ought to factor in the total cost, in addition to reconsidering who would be most impacted by that tariff. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/63 "2018-12-28T04:30:23Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > 1 ) Trump certainly could charge Mexicans an upfront fee for their goods to enter our country if he wanted to. 2% is a small amount for two years. I’d argue our social nets have to pay for way more than what it would cost to build a wall on drug rehab, and medical costs alone. Substance abuse costs our Nation over $600 billion annually, let’s be really conservative and say 20 billion of the amount is from hard core Mexcian Drugs. See the ROI? I’m not against work visas mind you. You seem to have no idea what a tariff (tax) actually is and who pays it. In almost all cases, the importer pays the tariff, so it is a tax on importer/distributors that is generally passed onto the consumer in the guise of higher prices. Mexico won’t pay shit for any wall; the people paying for it are the people whose lifestyle depends on inexpensive goods coming from a cheap labor market. > [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > 2 ) My point that some of the people entering the USA illegally are commit crimes is a fact. And these crimes numbers in the tens of thousands. Better border security will lower this number. You can put a price on lives lost, rapes / human trafficking, etc… if you wish. Lately, an illegal immigrant cop killer has been in the news. Trump’s failure is not pointing the cameras on the USA victims as it would be very powerful. I’m not going to bother playing my website is better than yours on exactly how much crime is committed, or the rate of the crimes by the illegals as that can vary depending on the source. The Mexican murder rate is even higher than ours, about 5x higher. I’ll settle by its a major problem, and be correct. You are not correct. Every metric and measure of crime by immigrants (documented and undocumented) is lower than by the citizen population by a wide margin. And the crimes that are most typical among undocumented immigrants—domestic violence and other forms of spousal and child abuse—are exacerbated by the unwillingness of undocumented immigrants to cooperate with authorities out of a very legitimate fear of being deported even if they are a victim. > [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > 3 ) 85% of Mexican exports go to the USA. That’s a very high number, they need us, and we give them millions in aid. Those exports go to the United States not because they need us but because we need them, hence NAFTA and the replacement United States—Mexico—Canada Agreement (when and if ratified) in order to be able to maintain a consumer lifestyle in which cheap manufactured goods are readily available. If the United States elected to put an onerous tariff on these goods that made the products unappealing to consumers, Mexico could turn around and sell goods to other emerging great economies with consumers looking for inexpensive products and growing labor costs, e.g. China, Korea, et cetera. You don’t actually seem to know much about the topics of tariffs and trade, and appear resistant to being educated, but if you’d like to know more: the non-partisan Tax Policy Center [URL=[What Is A Tariff And Who Pays It? | Tax Policy Center](https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/what-tariff-and-who-pays-it)]”What Is A Tariff And Who Pays It?” > [@Moriarty](#): > > And $5 billion is just a down payment. All it gets you is a half finished project. If you are considering the amount of tariffs you’d need to extract the cost, you ought to factor in the total cost, in addition to reconsidering who would be most impacted by that tariff. US$5B isn’t even half-finished. The costs on a comprehensive sea-to-sea wall are likely something more like US$30B to US$50B, and even then there are going to be areas where creating a permanent physical barrier is going to be extremely challenging. US$5B might not even cover annual surveillance and upkeep. And the reality is that we need immigrants not only for the inexpensive labor they provide but for the young wage earners and taxpayers they create in order to provide a sustainable economy and labor for services where automation is unlikely to significantly replace human effort, e.g. child care, health care, elder care, construction, et cetera. “Wall” is just a dumb idea that serves as a distraction from getting to the actual work of immigration reform so that we can let in the people that will be real contributors and weed out those few who are trying in some way to game the system or who pose a threat. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/64 "2018-12-28T06:02:14Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Stranger, > 1 ) Trump certainly could charge Mexicans an upfront fee for their goods to enter our country if he wanted to. 2% is a small amount for two years. … A 2% Tariff on mexican goods would mean us _Americans_ pay it. The merchants would simply raise their prices 2%. That’s how tariffs operate in the real economy. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/65 "2018-12-28T06:39:48Z")
I’m a tad bemused by the notion that Mexico is sending goods (and drugs) into the U.S. just for the hell of it and the U.S. government can charge them a fee for the privilege of doing so. Those items are coming to the U.S. because Americans want them and are willing to buy them, and putting barriers in the way just raises the prices for those Americans. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/66 "2018-12-28T11:59:46Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > 1 ) Trump certainly could charge Mexicans an upfront fee for their goods to enter our country if he wanted to. As others have pointed out, you haven’t grasped what tariffs or for that matter what imports are. There isn’t a Mexican government store in downtown Las Vegas selling this Mexican owned stuff out of a warehouse. It is being imported by American businesses, for demand by American consumers. If the tariff is 2% or 200% it’s added to the cost of goods and passed on to the consumer. The other countries exporting to the US will bump up their prices by the equivalent of the tariff as will every US manufacturer. Every cent of the increased import cost is borne by US consumers. The tariff may cost Mexican exporters but any differential isn’t paid to the US Treasury. If the tariff is sufficient to make Mexican sourced goods less competitive then (if volumes can’t be placed into other markets) the worst that will happen to Mexico will be falls in factory production and with it wages and employment increasing the socioeconomic incentives to migrate legally or otherwise to the US. It might is a simple notion that’s easily sold, but it’s counterproductive to both sides of the trade, and worse for the US than Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/67 "2018-12-28T14:27:19Z")
With the usual Dopers complaining about the Wall, [it seems fair to listen to a paean to the Wall, sung by one of the orange man’s supporters.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAlvBMwN_7U) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/68 "2018-12-28T14:37:15Z")
On a more sombre note, [why do we build the wall - Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?q=why+do+we+build+the+wall&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS690US690&oq=why+do+we+build+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.8685j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/69 "2018-12-28T19:00:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whether or not Trump could do this (I’m less than convinced), he hasn’t. He’s failed to get Mexico to pay for the wall, and is now trying to get American taxpayers to fund it. And he fails to realize that the Democrats in Congress have zero incentive to cooperate. I don’t think Trump supporters judge him on what he says on a campaign or cares about fact-checking. They clamor for his vision and results first and foremost. Almost all politicians of stature by the nature of the business have moments when they say something and it doesn’t happen, or they change their initial opinions. I have never met anyone for illegal immigration or a person that denies the problems that come with it. Is 5 billion dollars really a lot of money? Obama’s stimulus was somewhere in the neighborhood of 800 billion dollars. Did it build anything? I recall the former President saying there are shovel-ready projects, only to retract it by saying I guess they weren’t so shovel ready. Something like that. With Trump, if he gets the money approved, I do believe he will build a wall for better border security. The ROI on the wall for the problems with drugs alone would come quickly, overall crime from illegal immigration would go down, and so would human trafficking. So what’s the problem? I’ll tell you, even though Chuck Schumer was for better border security when Obama was president, I believe Democrats fear that by giving Trump a signature win, he’ll be harder defeat in 2020. ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/70 "2018-12-28T19:05:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A 2% Tariff on mexican goods would mean us _Americans_ pay it. The merchants would simply raise their prices 2%. That’s how tariffs operate in the real economy. Consumers are not forced to buy anything. Call it a tax, a fee, whatever you wish. 2% for 2 years will not be noticed unless your buying things in bulk But talking about the real economy, how much of it does the USA government spend for the problems illegal imitation, drug trafficking, crimes, and such. Give me your best guess. I’d venture to say a 5 billion dollar investment the taxpayers would see an ROI in a few years, so if you want to talk about how much of the taxpayer money goes to welfare to support illegals before sending them home, security, drug rehab, you name it on the above problems, economically speaking building the wall makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/71 "2018-12-28T19:07:41Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Almost all politicians of stature by the nature of the business have moments when they say something and it doesn’t happen, or they change their initial opinions. Trump’s moment has been running constantly for almost two years now. It might be a record. > [@](#): > > With Trump, if he gets the money approved, I do believe he will build a wall for better border security. The ROI on the wall for the problems with drugs alone would come quickly, overall crime from illegal immigration would go down, and so would human trafficking. I get that your gut is telling you this, because I haven’t seen any evidence that would convince your brain. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/72 "2018-12-28T19:11:38Z")
When is someone going to point out the real reason Trump wants the wall? It’s obvious he gives fuck-all about “border security.” All he is interested in doing is building _something_ he can put his name on. So far, he has accomplished nothing constructive in his administration. This would be his legacy. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/73 "2018-12-28T19:12:07Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > I don’t think Trump supporters judge him on what he says on a campaign or cares about fact-checking. They clamor for his vision and results first and foremost. How do Trump supporters even know what his “vision” is without paying attention to what he says? And how do you evaluate his “results” without at least some fact-checking? I suspect what you really mean is that Trump supporters just enjoy hearing the rhetorical demagoguery he pulls out of his ass and don’t like having their buzz harshed by comparing it to reality. > [@Ancient Erudite](#): > > Obama’s stimulus was somewhere in the neighborhood of 800 billion dollars. Did it build anything? Do you really need somebody else to [look this up](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009#Provisions_of_the_Act) for you? > [@](#): > > […] Infrastructure investment > Total: $105.3 billion […] > > Transportation […] > Total: $48.1 billion,[44] some in the form of Transportation Income Generating Economic Recovery (TIGER) Grants > > $27.5 billion for highway and bridge construction projects > $8 billion for intercity passenger rail projects and rail congestion grants, with priority for high-speed rail > $6.9 billion for new equipment for public transportation projects (Federal Transit Administration) > $1.5 billion for national surface transportation discretionary grants > $1.3 billion for Amtrak > $1.1 billion in grants for airport improvements > $750 million for the construction of new public rail transportation systems and other fixed guideway systems. > $750 million for the maintenance of existing public transportation systems > $200 million for FAA upgrades to air traffic control centers and towers, facilities, and equipment > $100 million in grants for improvements to domestic shipyards > Water, sewage, environment, and public lands > Total: $18 billion > > $4.6 billion for the Army Corps of Engineers for environmental restoration, flood protection, hydropower, and navigation infrastructure projects > $4 billion for the Clean Water State Revolving Fund wastewater treatment infrastructure improvements (EPA) > $2 billion for the Drinking Water State Revolving Fund drinking water infrastructure improvements (EPA) > $1.38 billion for rural drinking water and waste disposal projects > $1 billion to the Bureau of Reclamation for drinking water projects for rural or drought-likely areas > $750 million to the National Park Service > $650 million to the Forest Service > $600 million for hazardous waste cleanup at Superfund sites (EPA) > $515 million for wildfire prevention projects > $500 million for Bureau of Indian Affairs infrastructure projects > $340 million to the Natural Resources Conservation Service for watershed infrastructure projects > $320 million to the Bureau of Land Management > $300 million for reductions in emissions from diesel engines (EPA) > $300 million to improve Land Ports of Entry (GSA) > $280 million for National Wildlife Refuges and the National Fish Hatchery System > $220 million to the International Boundary and Water Commission to repair flood control systems along the Rio Grande > $200 million for cleanup of leaking Underground Storage Tanks (EPA) > $100 million for cleaning former industrial and commercial sites (Brownfields) (EPA) > Government buildings and facilities[edit] > > Total: $7.2 billion > > $4.2 billion to repair and modernize Defense Department facilities. > $890 million to improve housing for service members > $750 million for federal buildings and U.S. Courthouses (GSA) > $250 million to improve Job Corps training facilities > $240 million for new child development centers > $240 million for the maintenance of United States Coast Guard facilities > $200 million for Department of Homeland Security headquarters > $176 million for Agriculture Research Service repairs and improvements > $150 million for the construction of state extended-care facilities > $100 million to improve facilities of the National Guard > > […] Housing > Total: $14.7 billion > > $4 billion to the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) for repairing and modernizing public housing, including increasing the energy efficiency of units. > $2.25 billion in tax credits for financing low-income housing construction > $2 billion for Section 8 housing rental assistance > $2 billion for the Neighborhood Stabilization Program to purchase and repair foreclosed vacant housing > $1.5 billion for rental assistance to prevent homelessness > $1 billion in community development block grants for state and local governments > $555 million in mortgage assistance for wounded service members (Army Corps of Engineers) > $510 million for the rehabilitation of Native American housing > $250 million for energy efficient modernization of low-income housing > $200 million for helping rural Americans buy homes (Department of Agriculture) > $140 million in grants for independent living centers for elderly blind persons (Dept. of Education) > $130 million for rural community facilities (Department of Agriculture) > $100 million to help remove lead paint from public housing > $100 million emergency food and shelter for homeless (Department of Homeland Security) […] ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/74 "2018-12-28T19:12:49Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Consumers are not forced to buy anything. Call it a tax, a fee, whatever you wish. 2% for 2 years will not be noticed unless your buying things in bulk Hey, you know who buys things in bulk? Manufacturers do, and if their costs suddenly jump 2%, they definitely notice and typically respond by laying people off as well as raising prices. End consumers might not notice the price increase, assuming they’re not the ones who got laid off. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/75 "2018-12-28T19:17:44Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > I don’t think Trump supporters judge him on what he says on a campaign or cares about fact-checking. They clamor for his vision and results first and foremost. Almost all politicians of stature by the nature of the business have moments when they say something and it doesn’t happen, or they change their initial opinions. > > I have never met anyone for illegal immigration or a person that denies the problems that come with it. > > Is 5 billion dollars really a lot of money? Obama’s stimulus was somewhere in the neighborhood of 800 billion dollars. Did it build anything? I recall the former President saying there are shovel-ready projects, only to retract it by saying I guess they weren’t so shovel ready. Something like that. Or something else, as usual a lot of what you are relying on was the Republican propaganda against anything the government did to help. > **[Opinion | What the Stimulus Accomplished (Published 2014)](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/opinion/sunday/what-the-stimulus-accomplished.html)** > > Though ridiculed by Republicans, the 2009 Recovery Act saved the American economy. > [@](#): > > The legacy of that policy, detailed by the White House last week in its final report on the effects of the stimulus, affects virtually every American who drives, uses mass transit, or drinks water. It improved 42,000 miles of road, fixed or replaced 2,700 bridges, and bought more than 12,000 transit vehicles. It cleaned up water supplies, created the school reforms of the Race to the Top program, and greatly expanded the use of renewable energy and broadband Internet service. > > It’s probably too late for the White House to persuade skeptics about its program, but its assessment echoes the views of many independent economists and the independent Congressional Budget Office. “The Recovery Act was not a failed program,” the C.B.O.’s director, Douglas Elmendorf, told annoyed Republican lawmakers in 2012. “Our position is that it created higher output and employment than would have occurred without it.” > > Government spending worked, helping millions of people who never realized it. And it can work again, whenever lawmakers agree that putting people to work is more important than winning ideological fights. > [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > With Trump, if he gets the money approved, I do believe he will build a wall for better border security. The ROI on the wall for the problems with drugs alone would come quickly, overall crime from illegal immigration would go down, and so would human trafficking. Uh, No. More likely is that like Arpaio did in Arizona by concentrating on ideological things like walls and hunting immigrants for driving around, more pressing needs like hunting rape criminals suffered because of budget priorities that were set that way so as to make the Arizona bigots happy. > [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > So what’s the problem? I’ll tell you, even though Chuck Schumer was for better border security when Obama was president, I believe Democrats fear that by giving Trump a signature win, he’ll be harder defeat in 2020. Nonsense, considering that thanks to the latest fight about the wall Trump is getting more unpopular in the polls and in the past elections the Democrats won the house also by disparaging the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/76 "2018-12-28T19:23:12Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > 2% for 2 years will not be noticed unless your buying things in bulk As **Bryan Ekers** pointed out, manufacturers and wholesalers **do** buy things in bulk, and their purchases make up the vast majority of our imports from Mexico. > [@Ancient Erudite](#): > > I’d venture to say a 5 billion dollar investment the taxpayers would see an ROI in a few years, so if you want to talk about how much of the taxpayer money goes to welfare to support illegals before sending them home, security, drug rehab, you name it on the above problems, economically speaking building the wall makes sense. Only if you “venture” to assume, entirely unrealistically, that a $5B wall would actually be effective in substantially reducing illegal immigration and its costs. Which it would not. For the _n_th time: [**Most of the people known as “illegal immigrants” _entered the US LEGALLY_.**](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/visa-overstays-outnumber-illegal-border-crossings-trend-expected-continue-n730216) Even a physically effective border wall—which your proposed $5B boondoggle would not be—would have absolutely zero effect on the millions of undocumented residents who originally entered the country on a legally valid visa. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/77 "2018-12-28T20:37:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > [The Pakistan-Afghanistan border wall currently under constructio](https://fp.brecorder.com/2018/12/20181216431511/)n, has a cost estimate under a Billion USD. In much worse terrain. > Admittedly costs of work are lower,but not by that much. As noted above, it’s a wire fence, not a wall, runs about 2,000 kilometres, not 2,000 miles, and the daily minimum wage in Pakistan is about $3.70 a day. Even doubling that for skilled fence builders is less than $8/day rather than whatever figure you care to plug in for the hourly rate for building the US wall. Whatever you figure the cost of the US wall might be, what kind of projects would you rather see that money go to? Would it be better invested in education? Usable infrastructure? Health? Awesome wifi connectivity? Businesses that would create sustainable jobs and training? Free beer for everyone? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/78 "2018-12-28T21:20:19Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > I don’t think Trump supporters judge him on what he says on a campaign or cares about fact-checking. \ This speaks very poorly of Trump supporters, if true. > [@](#): > > With Trump, if he gets the money approved, I do believe he will build a wall for better border security. The ROI on the wall for the problems with drugs alone would come quickly, overall crime from illegal immigration would go down, and so would human trafficking. I see no reason to believe any of this is likely to be true. This sounds like magical thinking. The wall would be symbolic, and that’s about it. It would serve as, at most, a very minor challenge in an already-very-difficult journey for those who seek to cross illegally. > [@](#): > > So what’s the problem? I’ll tell you, even though Chuck Schumer was for better border security when Obama was president, I believe Democrats fear that by giving Trump a signature win, he’ll be harder defeat in 2020. The problem is that the Democrats have literally zero incentive to cooperate. Their supporters oppose the wall as a symbol of stupidity and hatred. They were voted into office largely to oppose Trump. The only Americans who strongly support the wall are already in Trump’s camp, and the Democrats have no likelihood of gaining their support. And polling shows that the public is largely blaming this shutdown on Trump. So from a political perspective, the shutdown helps the Democrats and hurts Trump, and capitulating to Trump would hurt the Democrats politically and help Trump. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/79 "2018-12-30T14:46:45Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > When is someone going to point out the real reason Trump wants the wall? > > It’s obvious he gives fuck-all about “border security.” All he is interested in doing is building _something_ he can put his name on. > So far, he has accomplished nothing constructive in his administration. This would be his legacy. You got it in one. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495/80 "2018-12-31T02:05:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Do you really need somebody else to [look this up](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009#Provisions_of_the_Act) for you? So, what did he spend the other 7 trillion on during his presidency? Just curious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-five-billion-dollar-wall/826495.md?page=5)