# The Flash S02E19: Back to Normal **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 27, 2016, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253 "2016-04-27T12:50:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/21 "2016-04-28T19:45:08Z")
> [@Meltdown](#): > > Here’s the part I don’t get – if it was younger Zolomon who had the relationship with Caitlyn, why does Zoom / current Zolomon say that he loves her? He never had a single conversation with her, and clearly younger Zolomon was part of a different time stream, since he’s dead and Zoom is still alive. What am I missing? I think, for most of the season, there was only one Hunter Zolomon (or at least, one from Earth-2). He would switch between Zoom and Jay Garrick as needed, or create a speed mirage if both had to be present in the same place. Plenty of time for Hunter disguised as Jay to develop a relationship with Caitlin. It was only when he had to be present simultaneously on Earth-1 and Earth-2 did he find it necessary to to recruit younger Hunter. This possibly occurred when Barry et al. visited Earth-2. ---
**Author:** ![Meltdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Meltdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meltdown)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/22 "2016-04-28T20:00:17Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > It was only when he had to be present simultaneously on Earth-1 and Earth-2 did he find it necessary to to recruit younger Hunter. I thought that the recruitment of younger Hunter predated the opening of the rift between Earths 1 & 2. I thought he said that he recruited younger Hunter back on Earth 2 to allow him to be a “hero” to give the people some hope, because it was more fun to subsequently terrorize them. I may have misheard (or misunderstood) though. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/23 "2016-04-28T20:17:25Z")
> [@Meltdown](#): > > I thought that the recruitment of younger Hunter predated the opening of the rift between Earths 1 & 2. I thought he said that he recruited younger Hunter back on Earth 2 to allow him to be a “hero” to give the people some hope, because it was more fun to subsequently terrorize them. I may have misheard (or misunderstood) though. No, he said he created the Jay persona to give people hope, so he could later take it away from them. The only way he’d get enjoyment of that is if he did it himself and not leave it to some younger version of himself. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/24 "2016-04-28T20:30:52Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > I think, for most of the season, there was only one Hunter Zolomon (or at least, one from Earth-2). He would switch between Zoom and Jay Garrick as needed, or create a speed mirage if both had to be present in the same place. Plenty of time for Hunter disguised as Jay to develop a relationship with Caitlin. It was only when he had to be present simultaneously on Earth-1 and Earth-2 did he find it necessary to to recruit younger Hunter. This possibly occurred when Barry et al. visited Earth-2. > [@Meltdown](#): > > I thought that the recruitment of younger Hunter predated the opening of the rift between Earths 1 & 2. I thought he said that he recruited younger Hunter back on Earth 2 to allow him to be a “hero” to give the people some hope, because it was more fun to subsequently terrorize them. I may have misheard (or misunderstood) though. > [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > No, he said he created the Jay persona to give people hope, so he could later take it away from them. The only way he’d get enjoyment of that is if he did it himself and not leave it to some younger version of himself. Hunter created the jay ‘persona’ on earth 2 and played ‘both parts’ - since we don’t know exactly how those events play out - I suspect there was never a requirement for bruce/batman to be in the same place at the same time with Clark/superman. sorry - mixed persons - you get the point - guess I need glasses. After the rift to earth-1 opened, he went and got an ‘earlier version’ from the timestream to play Jay on earth-1. Hunter kills that Jay. because its an earlier version of himself pulled from the time stream, the death doesn’t impact Zoom (still not clear on why, but its comic book logic). Hunter/zoom specifically says that even he is not fast enough to create the ‘speed mirage’ effectively. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/25 "2016-04-28T20:40:52Z")
> [@simster](#): > > After the rift to earth-1 opened, he went and got an ‘earlier version’ from the timestream to play Jay on earth-1. Hunter kills that Jay. because its an earlier version of himself pulled from the time stream, the death doesn’t impact Zoom (still not clear on why, but its comic book logic). > > Hunter/zoom specifically says that even he is not fast enough to create the ‘speed mirage’ effectively. He’s not fast enough to create speed mirages through a breach _on two different Earths_. He’s certainly fast enough to create speed mirages on a single Earth, as Barry could do it even when Barry was slower than Zoom. While it’s certainly possible that Zoom retrieved younger Hunter to play Jay Garrick when the breaches opened, it was simply not necessary. We saw while Jesse was incarcerated that Zoom never spent much time in his lair. He could have been performing mischief on Earth-2 but he could also have popped over to Earth-1 to play Jay Garrick. As Jay Garrick on Earth-1 he would always pop in and out of S.T.A.R. Labs. We would even see entire episodes without Jay. Where would this visitor from Earth-2 be keeping himself? Perhaps, going back to Earth-2 and putting on the Zoom suit? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/26 "2016-04-28T20:45:45Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > He’s not fast enough to create speed mirages through a breach _on two different Earths_. He’s certainly fast enough to create speed mirages on a single Earth, as Barry could do it even when Barry was slower than Zoom. > > While it’s certainly possible that Zoom retrieved younger Hunter to play Jay Garrick when the breaches opened, it was simply not necessary. We saw while Jesse was incarcerated that Zoom never spent much time in his lair. He could have been performing mischief on Earth-2 but he could also have popped over to Earth-1 to play Jay Garrick. As Jay Garrick on Earth-1 he would always pop in and out of S.T.A.R. Labs. We would even see entire episodes without Jay. Where would this visitor from Earth-2 be keeping himself? Perhaps, going back to Earth-2 and putting on the Zoom suit? Hunter specifically said in one of the eps that he grabbed the earlier version of himself to paly the part on earth1 - if it was ‘actaully’ zoom, he couldn’t have stuck his arm thru himself to take himself back to earth 2 to die at his own feet. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/27 "2016-04-28T20:53:24Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Hunter specifically said in one of the eps that he grabbed the earlier version of himself to paly the part on earth1 - if it was ‘actaully’ zoom, he couldn’t have stuck his arm thru himself to take himself back to earth 2 to die at his own feet. Yes, I’m saying that only needed to happen Barry & Co visited Earth-2 and Hunter had to be Zoom and Jay simultaneously on two different Earths. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/28 "2016-04-28T20:59:02Z")
I’m wondering if the Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon will help Team Flash in some way. (Or have I lost track and he’s dead/evil?) ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/29 "2016-04-29T05:41:24Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > No, he said he created the Jay persona to give people hope, so he could later take it away from them. The only way he’d get enjoyment of that is if he did it himself and not leave it to some younger version of himself. And I still think he was lying when he said he created the Flash on Earth-2. The real Jay Garrick is in the iron mask, Zoom just started impersonating him after capturing him and stealing his speed. That is why he said they wouldn’t believe him if he told them who was in the mask. > [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > I’m wondering if the Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon will help Team Flash in some way. (Or have I lost track and he’s dead/evil?) He doesn’t have any powers and probably doesn’t even know that Earth-2 exists. Assuming that Zoom hasn’t killed him. Could a sociopath accept having a doppelganger running around, even on a different earth? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/30 "2016-04-29T14:54:28Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > Yes, I’m saying that only needed to happen Barry & Co visited Earth-2 and Hunter had to be Zoom and Jay simultaneously on two different Earths. So - I think I understand what your saying - The ‘only time’ we saw the ‘time remnant’ hunter/Jay is at the portal/death scene - and most/all of the other times it was simply Zoom? Is that it? While I’m not sure I agree, I can see that being plausible - in a timey-wimey-wibbly-wobbly way. ---
**Author:** ![Meltdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Meltdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meltdown)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/31 "2016-04-29T14:56:16Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > No, he said he created the Jay persona to give people hope, so he could later take it away from them. The only way he’d get enjoyment of that is if he did it himself and not leave it to some younger version of himself. Thanks, I think this was the source of my confusion. I thought that he created the Jay persona specifically for his younger self to play. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/32 "2016-04-30T02:20:33Z")
> [@simster](#): > > So - I think I understand what your saying - > > The ‘only time’ we saw the ‘time remnant’ hunter/Jay is at the portal/death scene - and most/all of the other times it was simply Zoom? > > Is that it? > > While I’m not sure I agree, I can see that being plausible - in a timey-wimey-wibbly-wobbly way. Yes. At the minimum, Zoom only needs another, younger, copy of himself disguised as Jay to throw the football into the breach, just in time for present-Zoom to pop his hand out of the timestream and kill him. It doesn’t even need to be a much younger Jay either. It could have been a Jay that had already crossed over into Earth-1 and had already established a relationship with Caitlin and the rest of the S.T.A.R. Labs team. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/33 "2016-05-01T15:59:14Z")
But weren’t there several things that Jay did/failed to stop that were actively harmful to Zoom’s goals? Like closing the breaches before Zoom got the Flash’s speed? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/34 "2016-05-01T16:10:15Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > But weren’t there several things that Jay did/failed to stop that were actively harmful to Zoom’s goals? Like closing the breaches before Zoom got the Flash’s speed? It looks like the show is going with the “He’s crazy and does crazy things” as the explanation for issues like that. I’d prefer an answer that preserved the Jay Garrick who worked with Team Flash as a good guy, and had Zoom as a future evil version of Jay who has come back in time to torment his earlier version (maybe killing his earlier version while his earlier version was in another universe keeps Zoom from disappearing when his earlier self is killed?). ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/35 "2016-05-01T17:05:37Z")
Up until the reveal i figured Zoom was going to be Jay from a different earth, and the masked man was going to be yet another Jay or Barry. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/36 "2016-05-03T01:31:43Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > But weren’t there several things that Jay did/failed to stop that were actively harmful to Zoom’s goals? Like closing the breaches before Zoom got the Flash’s speed? I dunno about that. Jay pretty much had one goal - getting Barry faster, the equivalent of fattening him up before taking his speed. I don’t think he was all that concerned about the breaches, and it wasn’t until later he wanted to “conquer” Barry’s Earth (though really, I haven’t seen much saying he conquered his own, rather than terrorize a few people). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/37 "2016-05-03T04:18:36Z")
How did Jay/Hunter get back to Earth 2 with Caitlyn? I thought that was only possible if Cisco opened a portal, yet Zoom grabs Caitlyn and when we next see her, she’s in the cliff lair. And why didn’t it occur to anyone to put, I dunno, some cyanide in the syringe along with magical speed force midichlorians? ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/38 "2016-05-03T05:54:28Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > I dunno about that. Jay pretty much had one goal - getting Barry faster, the equivalent of fattening him up before taking his speed. I don’t think he was all that concerned about the breaches, and it wasn’t until later he wanted to “conquer” Barry’s Earth (though really, I haven’t seen much saying he conquered his own, rather than terrorize a few people). But when the breeches were closed, Zoom ends up on Earth-2, and if they hadn’t re-opened them, then he’d never have gotten another chance to get at Barry’s speed. And wasn’t it even Jay throwing the final breech-closing football (only to be rewarded by a fist through the chest), or am I misremembering? ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/39 "2016-05-03T08:04:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > How did Jay/Hunter get back to Earth 2 with Caitlyn? I thought that was only possible if Cisco opened a portal, yet Zoom grabs Caitlyn and when we next see her, she’s in the cliff lair. Cisco can open a breach, but can’t close them. You need to throw in a one of those footballs to do the latter. > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > But when the breeches were closed, Zoom ends up on Earth-2, and if they hadn’t re-opened them, then he’d never have gotten another chance to get at Barry’s speed. And wasn’t it even Jay throwing the final breech-closing football (only to be rewarded by a fist through the chest), or am I misremembering? That’s pretty much how it went down. I think that, as Zoom-as-Jay got to know Barry, he realized that Barry would never let him (Zoom) continue to terrorize Earth-2 and would find a way to reopen the breaches. He also knew that Cisco could reopen them, since he knew Cisco’s doppelganger Reverb could do it. Note that, when Cisco tried to reopen a breach the first time, Zoom knew exactly what was happening and who was doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253/40 "2016-05-03T12:59:19Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > Cisco can open a breach, but can’t close them. You need to throw in a one of those footballs to do the latter. What, so they just left that breach there in the creepy hospital, where any random caretaker could stumble into it? The first time Cisco tried to open a breach but balked, the proto-breach disappeared the instant he broke concentration. And wait, didn’t Jay Garrick as the Flash of Earth 2 build up a heroic reputation on Earth 2? How long a game was this psycho playing? I appreciate, though, that his “costume” and helmet were apparently closely modeled on what I assume was a standard military uniform of his father’s generation, from the retro-future styling the show’s given Earth-2. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s02e19-back-to-normal/753253.md?page=3)