# The Flash S03E15: The Wrath of Savitar **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 8, 2017, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679 "2017-03-08T08:05:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/1 "2017-03-08T08:05:38Z")
Savitar said it twice in this episode: “I am the future Flash.” I am convinced that there’s no comma between “future” and “Flash”. Savitar is indeed the Flash from the future, maybe related to the Red Skies event described in the future newspaper. This would also explain why Savitar can’t just kill Barry; he wouldn’t just kill himself. Wally was so angry and self-righteous when he saw that future Iris wasn’t wearing a ring and he realized that Barry was keeping secrets. Yet he himself was keeping secrets, about seeing Savitar, about trying to defeat Savitar by himself. He was so easily goaded in letting Savitar out of the Speedforce. Where’s your righteousness now, Wally? ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/2 "2017-03-08T15:11:10Z")
Yeah, Wally’s an idiot. I hope he stays gone, or if he comes back I hope he’s lost his speed powers. There are too many speedsters running around this show. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/3 "2017-03-08T15:22:59Z")
Personally, I think the engagement ring idea was a good one, and Wally should have butt out of that entire issue. Also, Barry had a point about Savitar possibly spying through Wally. On the other hand, when Barry saw Wally being knocked around like that, he should have helped. Take a moment from your busy schedule and save him, okay? How does he know it wasn’t some new invisible meta attacking him? Or someone with telekinesis? I think the “one who dies” from the prophecy will be Julian, or possibly H.R. On the other hand, I still think that it might not be Iris who dies, but someone who looks like her. (A shapeshifter, an android, an illusion, whatever.) I also think they might wind up reversing it, and Savitar is holding Flash and Iris is the one begging him not to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/4 "2017-03-08T16:01:01Z")
Just had another thought: we know that Barry and Cisco have watched Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan together a bunch of times. This episode’s title is “The Wrath of Savitar”. Which makes me wonder if there’s going to be a line about “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one” in the next episode. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/5 "2017-03-08T16:19:17Z")
Savitar is HR. Note that Savitar constantly referred to Wally as Wallace, and AFAIK only HR calls him that. There were also references to “I created you”, which at one level are the stone that gave Wally his powers - but HR is also the one training Wally to be faster. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/6 "2017-03-08T16:27:58Z")
Here’s what I want to see: “Okay guys, it’s time for our morning meeting. This is the time to report any mysterious visions or possibly prophetic dreams you’ve had, or individual investigations or schemes you’ve started in the last 12 hours. Remember, we’ll be meeting again for the same purpose this afternoon, but if something really weird happens before then, there’s no problem with calling the team together to discuss before the afternoon meeting. Remember, poor communication kills.” ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/7 "2017-03-08T16:39:27Z")
Yeah It’s pretty obvious now that he is Barry in the future where something bad happened to turn him evil. ---
**Author:** ![NeonMadman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58f4c7/32.png) [@NeonMadman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeonMadman)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/8 "2017-03-08T16:45:43Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > Yeah, Wally’s an idiot. I hope he stays gone, or if he comes back I hope he’s lost his speed powers. There are too many speedsters running around this show. But that’s the DC way of doing things. You can’t just have one superhero with a certain power or set of powers; there have to be dozens of them. Superman now has Supergirl, Superwoman, Superboy, Lex Luthor as an alternate Superman, Krypto the Superdog, little Supermen from the bottle city of Kandor, etc. etc. Green lantern couldn’t just be one guy; there had to be thousands of them, making up the intergalactic police force known as the Green Lantern Corps. And then even that wasn’t enough - they had to introduce Red Lanterns, Orange Lanterns, Yellow Lanterns (aka the Sinestro Corps), Blue, Indigo, Black Lanterns and a White Lantern. Too much is never enough. Reading comic books these days is really confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/9 "2017-03-08T18:33:42Z")
> [@NeonMadman](#): > > But that’s the DC way of doing things. You can’t just have one superhero with a certain power or set of powers; there have to be dozens of them. Superman now has Supergirl, Superwoman, Superboy, Lex Luthor as an alternate Superman, Krypto the Superdog, little Supermen from the bottle city of Kandor, etc. etc. > > Green lantern couldn’t just be one guy; there had to be thousands of them, making up the intergalactic police force known as the Green Lantern Corps. And then even that wasn’t enough - they had to introduce Red Lanterns, Orange Lanterns, Yellow Lanterns (aka the Sinestro Corps), Blue, Indigo, Black Lanterns and a White Lantern. Too much is never enough. > > Reading comic books these days is really confusing. “these days” being like 1955 or so? 🙂 Kandor appeared in Action #242, circa 1958. Supergirl a year later in Action #252. Superboy was late 1940s. There was Superman-Red/Superman-Blue, Nightwing and Flamebird (Superman and Jimmy being the Batman and Robin of Kandor), there were 2 or 3 future Supermen, Mon-El, and if you want to stretch a point, there was the Legion of Super-Heroes. There were two Flashes as of Flash #123, about 1961 when Barry met Jay for the first time. The Green Lantern Corps was implied in 1959 or so, Showcase #22 and we learned there were about 3600 members around Green Lantern #8 or so. Batman in the '50s had Batwoman, Batgirl, Ace the Bathound, Batmite, the Batman of Zurr-En-Arr, the Rainbow Batman, The Plaid Batman. Wonder Woman had a regular time-travel feature where Wonder Woman teamed up with her infant self (Wonder-Tot), her pre-teen self (Wonder Girl), her adult self (Wonder Woman) and her mom (Wonder-Queen?). That one was so confusing that the writer of Teen Titans didn’t understand that Wonder Girl was just Wonder Woman as a girl, and wrote her as an independent character (and Wonder Girl’s origin is still screwed up 50 years later). Aquaman had Aqualad, Mera, Aquagirl and later, Aquababy. Personally I like it–I think it adds to the richness of the mythology, but I respect that you don’t. I just wanted to argue that this is something new when it’s been around for longer than it hasn’t. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![UncaStuart](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncastuart/32/404_2.png) [@UncaStuart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncaStuart)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/10 "2017-03-08T21:18:53Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Here’s what I want to see: > > “Okay guys, it’s time for our morning meeting. This is the time to report any mysterious visions or possibly prophetic dreams you’ve had, or individual investigations or schemes you’ve started in the last 12 hours. Remember, we’ll be meeting again for the same purpose this afternoon, but if something really weird happens before then, there’s no problem with calling the team together to discuss before the afternoon meeting. Remember, poor communication kills.” Hear hear! ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/11 "2017-03-09T01:50:54Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Here’s what I want to see: > > “Okay guys, it’s time for our morning meeting. This is the time to report any mysterious visions or possibly prophetic dreams you’ve had, or individual investigations or schemes you’ve started in the last 12 hours. Remember, we’ll be meeting again for the same purpose this afternoon, but if something really weird happens before then, there’s no problem with calling the team together to discuss before the afternoon meeting. Remember, poor communication kills.” This is entirely too reasonable for the show and therefore will never be implemented. Every time they have an “all hands” meeting, someone gets upset and storms off resulting in someone else chasing after them to talk to them privately. In this episode, this happened _twice_ during the same frakken meeting. First Wally got upset and Jesse went after him then, immediately afterwards, Julian got upset and Caitlin ran after him. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/12 "2017-03-10T20:59:43Z")
I finally got around to watching this week’s episode and I wanted to get my bet down that Wally becomes Savitar. The thought came to me during the possession scene and explains why both Wally and Jesse are missing during the future viewings. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/13 "2017-03-10T21:15:43Z")
I haven’t seen the episode or read this thread, sorry. I do see that there is not a thread for episode 14, were Grodd was supposed to attack Central City. I don’t think that the episode aired here and am wondering if anyone has seen it? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/14 "2017-03-11T00:32:19Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > I haven’t seen the episode or read this thread, sorry. I do see that there is not a thread for episode 14, were Grodd was supposed to attack Central City. I don’t think that the episode aired here and am wondering if anyone has seen it? The episode aired - I saw it. Here’s a review [http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/flash-thwarts-underwhelming-gorilla-invasion-needl-251197](http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/flash-thwarts-underwhelming-gorilla-invasion-needl-251197) ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/15 "2017-03-11T01:47:18Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > I haven’t seen the episode or read this thread, sorry. I do see that there is not a thread for episode 14, were Grodd was supposed to attack Central City. I don’t think that the episode aired here and am wondering if anyone has seen it? Since “Attack on Central City” was essentially a continuation of the previous episode, we simply continued the discussion on the previous thread. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=819773&highlight=flash](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=819773&highlight=flash) ---
**Author:** ![NeonMadman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58f4c7/32.png) [@NeonMadman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeonMadman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/16 "2017-03-12T20:45:53Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > “these days” being like 1955 or so? 🙂 Kandor appeared in Action #242, circa 1958. Supergirl a year later in Action #252. Superboy was late 1940s. There was Superman-Red/Superman-Blue, Nightwing and Flamebird (Superman and Jimmy being the Batman and Robin of Kandor), there were 2 or 3 future Supermen, Mon-El, and if you want to stretch a point, there was the Legion of Super-Heroes. > > There were two Flashes as of Flash #123, about 1961 when Barry met Jay for the first time. The Green Lantern Corps was implied in 1959 or so, Showcase #22 and we learned there were about 3600 members around Green Lantern #8 or so. > > Batman in the '50s had Batwoman, Batgirl, Ace the Bathound, Batmite, the Batman of Zurr-En-Arr, the Rainbow Batman, The Plaid Batman. > > Wonder Woman had a regular time-travel feature where Wonder Woman teamed up with her infant self (Wonder-Tot), her pre-teen self (Wonder Girl), her adult self (Wonder Woman) and her mom (Wonder-Queen?). That one was so confusing that the writer of Teen Titans didn’t understand that Wonder Girl was just Wonder Woman as a girl, and wrote her as an independent character (and Wonder Girl’s origin is still screwed up 50 years later). > > Aquaman had Aqualad, Mera, Aquagirl and later, Aquababy. > > Personally I like it–I think it adds to the richness of the mythology, but I respect that you don’t. I just wanted to argue that this is something new when it’s been around for longer than it hasn’t. 🙂 All very true. And I’ve been reading all the DC characters since about the late 1950s, so I remember everything you cite. Somehow I enjoyed it all back then, and it didn’t seem as complicated and confusing as it does now. Though I think that the stories rely less on the writing these days and more on splashy artwork that is often beautiful but abstract. It’s nice to look at, but doesn’t convey the story as well, making the more complicated story elements harder to follow. Or maybe I’ve just gotten old. Someone once said. “the Golden Age of comics was when you were 10.” I think whoever said that was right on the money. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/17 "2017-03-12T23:45:36Z")
> [@NeonMadman](#): > > All very true. And I’ve been reading all the DC characters since about the late 1950s, so I remember everything you cite. Somehow I enjoyed it all back then, and it didn’t seem as complicated and confusing as it does now. Though I think that the stories rely less on the writing these days and more on splashy artwork that is often beautiful but abstract. It’s nice to look at, but doesn’t convey the story as well, making the more complicated story elements harder to follow. Or maybe I’ve just gotten old. I do have a soft-spot for the Silver Age comics, although I only read them as reprints. (I’m in my thirties.) As far as keeping up with the confusing multitude of characters, at least these days when I’m trying to remember if Wolverine is currently dead, or an old man, or a girl, or all of the above, I can just do a quick wiki search. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flash-s03e15-the-wrath-of-savitar/781679/18 "2017-03-13T05:29:00Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I finally got around to watching this week’s episode and I wanted to get my bet down that Wally becomes Savitar. The thought came to me during the possession scene and explains why both Wally and Jesse are missing during the future viewings. I just caught up with this episode today, and I also think Wally will turn out to be Savitar. I think he said something to Barry indicating he was someone that Barry failed to save – maybe that means Barry fails to save Wally from the speed force. Maybe he’ll stay stuck in the speed force for so long that he kind of goes crazy / turns evil, plus all that time in the speed force could explain why his speed powers become so strong. Maybe he finally manages to escape in the future – possibly by trading places with Barry, which could explain the “Flash Vanishes in Crisis” headline. (Of course it’s also a reference to the 1985 story “Crisis on Infinite Earths”, but that doesn’t mean the T.V. version has to go anything like that.) Then, going with the OP’s suggestion, the escaped Savitar could take Barry’s place and become “the future Flash”. But Barry eventually escapes and puts Savitar back in the speed force, causing Savitar to hate Barry. The biggest hint for me is that when Barry confronts him at the end of the episode, Savitar says something about Barry being raised by Joe West and getting all the things he didn’t deserve. Who else would resent Barry for getting raised by Joe, if not Joe’s biological son who was raised by someone else? The only thing that doesn’t really make sense is the paradoxical time travel bit where he brought about his own creation as Savitar, and also the fact that he says he got the idea from Flashpoint. Why wouldn’t he have already known, if it’s basically his own origin story? But the show has done other paradoxical time travel stuff already, and explained it away by drawing a sketch on a whiteboard and declaring “Science!” So I still feel pretty good about this theory. Bonus prediction: The heroes will eventually figure all this out, and prevent it by saving Wally from the speed force after all, thus wiping Savitar from existence like happened to Thawne in season one. The fact that this is repetitive doesn’t make it any less likely in my mind, given that they’ve already done the “One of the good guys turns out to be an evil speedster” thing multiple times. I still have no clue what’s up with H.R. and the drumsticks, though.