# The Flexibility of Reality and the GOP **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936 "2005-02-19T21:22:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/61 "2005-02-22T12:55:23Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Which of those sites constitutes holocaust denial? I checked the first one and did a quick google and it appears to be a resource dedicated to fighting holocaust deniers. Do you have other information to the contrary? No, you’re right. Looking deeper into the site, it apparently is as you describe. I would say that its creators would have been better off not putting the crackpot stuff “above the fold” before the disclaimer could be seen. Nevertheless, I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/62 "2005-02-22T13:10:17Z")
**Scylla** --how is my post (which you “rebutted” in post #51–no, I am not going to wade thru it and answer you) not supported by facts? My claiming that I question the intelligence of Reps these days is a fact. I do indeed question it. Let me be more specific for you–I am now questioning YOUR intelligence. **Scylla** said, “This is politics Mhendo. You seem to have some extraordinary and high standards that you apply to the Republican party. I’m sorry to disapoint you that they don’t live up to them.” Wow. This speaks volumes to me-so this story is all spin, eh? Not outright, dleiberate lies–but tweaking and hedging and non-answers that all pols do? And even it IS true, it’s ok, because it was not a high profile event? What kind of reasoning is this? Wow. I stand by my above statement re: intelligence. But now it’s not so much questioning as amazement. It obviously means a great deal to you to not have your party of choice wrong or misguided or even corrupt and manipulative in any way. So, despite mounting evidence to the contrary, you believe the Reps to be above reproach, using that old chestnut that never helped a teenager yet–the ole, “but everyone does it, so it’s ok” argument? What would it take for you to frown upon the actions of these elected officials? Or are you, like so many other Reps, giving them a free ride because they lowered your taxes by a few hundred bucks? Personal (small) gain at the cost of increasing world animosity towards us(aka jingoism), preventing (nay, encouraging) more damage to the enviroment, the loss of respect for the separation of church and state, the overburdening of future generations, the curtailment of the press–is this enough for you? If this is true–I can only shake my head. That’s incredible. It is incredibly sad. ---
**Author:** ![High\_Cheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8797f3/32.png) [@High\_Cheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/High_Cheese)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/63 "2005-02-22T20:43:44Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Which of those sites constitutes holocaust denial? I checked the first one and did a quick google and it appears to be a resource dedicated to fighting holocaust deniers. Do you have other information to the contrary? Aye. I was angling more for the content of the piece than the philosophy of the website. My use of [Heretics.co.uk](http://Heretics.co.uk) was not advocative, merely convenient. Even though I find their assertions ridiculous; I always find alternate philosophies and opinions interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/64 "2005-02-23T01:03:54Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > :Sigh: > > > [@](#): > > > > This is getting too silly for words. > > Actually, I think it started the way at the OP, and the generalized ranting against all people of Republican persuasion based on Cox’s harmless and innocent little congratulatory exageration 😃 > > > [@](#): > > > > The question is not whether or not Dean hates the Republicans, nor is it whether he’s a psycho. You’re perfectly welcome to believe that he is, and for the sake of my argument in this thread, i could actually agree with you and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference to the point of **logic** that i’m trying to make, to wit: the two statements, whatever they tell us about the people who made them, are different types of statement by virtue of the truth claims they make or do not make about independently verifiable evidence. If you don’t understand that fundamental difference, you’re not as smart as i gave you credit for. > > I understand 100% the point you are trying to make. Dean’s statement is one of personal opinion, Cox’s of empirical fact. I got it the first time. > > Frankly, this difference just doesn’t confront **my** point, as it is not altered by this distinction. > > My point is about people saying things that would otherwise be stupid in front of sympathetic audiences. And that politicians do it. > > On the other hand, I really **could** make the argument that Dean is, empirically, lying in his statement. “Hate” is a very strong word. Dean I’m sure must have found some Republican, somewhere, that he didn’t hate. Does he really hate us all, each and every one? Does he really “hate” everything Republicans stand for. Among things we stand for, are fairness, religious freedom, open elections, the abolition of slavery. > > Does Dean really hate these things? > > Frankly, I think his statement is an empirically veriffiable statement, and that he was lying. Dean’s history is not that of a psychotic hater of Republicans and everything they stand for. > > So, even though Dean is stating a matter of opinion, I don’t beleive it is reasonable to think he’s a total nutjob. He is simply lying to appeal to the nutjobs. > > Which makes the distinction you are drawing meaningless as both Cox and Dean told things that I’m sure they knew were not true. > > > [@](#): > > > > Furthermore, you said in your previous post that i should not expect all members of a particular group to repudiate or take responsibility for the statements made by one particular member. You were correct, and i clarified and amended my position accordingly. But surely a similar principle of debating (dis)honesty can apply to your tactics, > > I appreciate your integrity, and I have every intention of reciprocating the moment I discover I have been in error. > > > [@](#): > > > > in that it is insufficient to excuse Cox’s behavior in this case merely by making reference to Dean’s remarks. > > I’m truly not excusing Cox. It just doesn’t bother me. It’s routine and commonplace, and I am unwilling to feign indignation. > > > [@](#): > > > > If what Cox did is defensible, it should be so independently of anything that Howard Dean did or did not say. > > I think that what Cox said is defensible in the true meaning of the word. One can make an argument that would defend it. I am not doing so. I have only pointed out that it could be done. > > You are right of course that Cox’s comments and Dean’s comments cannot be justified by comparison. I am not truly not to justify, defend, or excuse either. I am just saying that it is too commonplace to get worked up about. Politicians exagerate, lie, and cater to their audience. That is what they do. > > > [@](#): > > > > Well, first of all, the Democrats are not my party. You’re making rather typical error, which you also made above in comparing Cox’s and Dean’s comments, in assuming that if a Republican is accused of doing something wrong, it is sufficient to point to something a Democrat did that is just as bad. It may surprise you to know that people can be strongly critical of both major parties, and that i don’t define my criticism of the Republican by Democrats’ standards. > > Ok, I apologize for assuming you were a part of the vast left-wing conspiracy. > > > [@](#): > > > > If you traced the history of my posts over the past four years, you’d see that i’ve spent far more time and energy criticizing the Democrats than i have supporting them. I’ve made no particular attempt in this thread to defend the Democrats or to boost them, and my whole argument in this thread can be made independently of any feeling that i have about the Democrats one way or the other. > > I stand corrected. > > > [@](#): > > > > But if you farted into the microphone while introducing the Vice President of the United States at one of the nation’s most important gatherings of conservative activists and politicians, i’d hope that at least a few people in the crowd would have the decency to apologize for your behavior. > > Why should they apologize for my fart? > > [quoote]So what if you only heard of it via this message board. Some people probably heard of the SE Asian tsunami by browsing these forums—does that mean it was an insignificant event? Well, if you are going to equate Cox’s comments to the tsunami in terms of significance why mince words? I say Godwinize and head straight for the Nazi argument. Bottom line, Cox’s comments **are** insignificant. > [@](#): > > And while you might interpret the relative media silence on the issue as evidence of it’s non-importance, might there not be other conclusions we can draw from media reticence? What liberal media, indeed. I suppose that it is possible that the complete and total support of the media enjoyed by the Repbulican party resulted in a hush up of the incident. Somehow, I suspect you are not going to seriously pursue this possibility. > [@](#): > > But CPAC is, [by its own estimation](http://www.cpac.org/), an “annual reunion of conservatives from all across America” and “the premier annual gathering of conservatives and one of the most important political events in the nation.” This year’s [list of speakers, moderators and panelists](http://cpac.org/speakers.asp) included not only the Vice President, US Senators and Representatives, former Senators and Representatives, and state-level GOP officals and elected representatives, but important and influential conservatives from a wide variety of foundations, organizations and institutions across the United States. And Ann Coulter. Somebody exagerrated in front of Ann Coulter? Somebody told a lie that supported Republicans in her presence? I don’t believe it. Surely there will be hell to pay when she gets a hold of this in her next column. > [@](#): > > And, as i’ve pointed out before, the remark was made in a speech introducing the Keynote Speaker, who also happened to be the Vice President, at this large and important conference’s Presidential Banquet. I am not really shocked and dismayed to learn that someone uttered a flattering untruth while introducing a bigwig at an event. I mean “wow,” who would expect such a thing? > [@](#): > > I never said MoveOn had no connection to the Democrats. I said that the “half-wit” (your term) who created the commercial had connection to the Democrats. And he didn’t. And MoveOn put the film on its website along with dozens of other commercials, also made by private citizens. The commercial with the Nazi reference received no official endorsement from MoveOn. Except that it was on their website, in their contest, and had “sponsored by [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org)” as the final credit. Sorry, but if you put something up on your site like that, it becomes yours and you become responsible for it. > [@](#): > > In fact, in what i thought was an act of toadying and cowardice, they explicitly rejected it and took it off the website after GOP criticism. It wasn’t getting any votes anyway, and would have been eliminated from the competition in short order. Ha-HA! You are right. Not only are you right, but you are serving my point. By removing it they looked like chumps. It was also an admission of guilt that got them more abuse. The **smart** thing to do would have been to leave it there and say “tough shit, that’s the opinion of the guy who made it. We’re holding a contest here, not censoring opinion. We support free speech.” What they did though is an admission of responsibility for the content of the entries. Why should some Republican piss on Cox, just because some offended Democrats want them, too. Cox is responsible for his own words. If someone needs to apologize or retract, it’s Cox, not anybody else. > [@](#): > > Again, i stress that the point about Cox and his mendacity exists independently of anything that Howard Dean might have said. True, but it’s bad form to complain about the quality of the orchestras performance while the Titanic sank. > [@](#): > > No, it’s not a word used lightly, but then, these are not times to be taken lightly. Hate is hate. If he means what he said, the Democrats have elected an admitted fool and monster to lead them. > [@](#): > > As for your 50% figure, where do you get that from? I’d be surprised if 50% of Americans were registered Republicans. And if you’re relying on election results, the most you can claim is 51% of the people who voted, or about 30% of the voting age population, or just over 20% of the total US population. Sheesh. It’s a two party system. Bush won by 51%. Your point is taken. My 50% comment is just an off the cuff comment meant to show Dean was claiming a hatred of a large portion of the country. It was not offered as an unimpeachable statistic. > [@](#): > > The current administration doesn’t use the word hate. In fact, it uses words like “compassionate conservatism” and “freedom.” Hell, the CPAC website even had the hubris to claim that conservatives in America are “Preserving civil liberties while combating terrorism.” God forbid. > [@](#): > > But despite all the rhetoric, the actual policies and actions of the administration and its supporters suggest nothing so much as hate for a considerable percentage of the American population. And, given their current power and influence, right now their actions speak a lot louder than Howard Dean’s words. While I agree that Dean is essentially inconsequential, I don’t think you can ascribe hate as a cornerstone of republicanism. I’ll be totally honest with you on this subject. I used to beleive that tolerance and forbearance were the gift of liberalism, it’s great strength. I look back over my life, and recent history and it was liberalism that led in Women’s rights, civil rights, social reform and respect and tolerance for people’s differences. While conservative philosophy strongly supports these things, with rare exceptions conservatives have not been leaders in this respect. For the most part we’ve been behind the curve. It really has been the failing of Republicans and conservatives, and should be our shame. And, this is what I believed up until the latter part of '99 At that time, I came to this board. On this board, and in life, I have watched liberalism become rabid and intolerant. In general I think liberals in this country have become the most intolerant sons of bitches around. They think they are filled with a righteous rage, but I really just think their obnoxious assholes when they display this kind of behavior. At some point it became tolerated. Then it became OK. Now, as Howard Dean has demonstrated, hatred is a credential of liberalism. It’s a “virtue.” This thread is evidence, too. Look at the vitriol spewed at Republicans in general over a comment that only one man is responsible for. You want to call Cox a dumby, so be it. Chances are, though I don’t know the man, I’ll agree it was at very least evidence of stupidity, but more likely deliberate mendacity. You want to use this to attack Republicans in general or to prove that they are the party in general are stupid and mendacious, then my reaction is that proves your failings, not the Pubbies. (I’m using the generic “You” here, Mhendo. Not you personally.) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/65 "2005-02-23T01:13:18Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I made the point about the importance of CPAC more than once, but what i should also have noted is that Cox’s assertion didn’t concern some trival matter. It was about the existence (or otherwise) or weapons of mass destruction. This whole issue was one of the most important, perhaps _the_ most important precipitating factor in the US-led invasion of Iraq. And that invasion was, without doubt, the most significant foreign policy decision—possibly the most significant policy decision of any kind—of the last four years. > > For anyone, especially someone who supported the war, to now suggest that public statements at major conservative conferences by GOP politicians regarding the existence of WMDs are nothing to be concerned about absolutely beggars belief. You frame it like that and you’ve made a good argument. On the other side of the coin, you wave your hand at Dean’s statement and decide to “cut him slack.” You frame Dean’s comments differently. I might say: “To have somebody announce a hatred for a half the electorate and everthing they stand for is a serious matter and I would expect any normal person doing it to be denounced by his peers. To have a man seeking the leadership of half the electorate make such a statement and recieve the endorsement of his peers is absolutely inexcusable and beggars beleif.” The real difference here, my friend is where you and I are respectively deciding to place our slack. When it boils down to it, it’s all just a bunch of rhetorical bullshit, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/66 "2005-02-23T01:31:08Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > **Scylla** --how is my post (which you “rebutted” in post #51–no, I am not going to wade thru it and answer you) not supported by facts? > > My claiming that I question the intelligence of Reps these days is a fact. I do indeed question it. Sure, but I think that’s a stupid and mean conclusion to draw from Cox’s comments. As such it tells us more about you than Republicans. > [@](#): > > Let me be more specific for you–I am now questioning YOUR intelligence. Fair enough. Hopefully this question will be better founded. > [@](#): > > **Scylla** said, “This is politics Mhendo. You seem to have some extraordinary and high standards that you apply to the Republican party. I’m sorry to disapoint you that they don’t live up to them.” > > Wow. This speaks volumes to me-so this story is all spin, eh? Not outright, dleiberate lies–but tweaking and hedging and non-answers that all pols do? And even it IS true, it’s ok, because it was not a high profile event? What kind of reasoning is this? I didn’t make the world. It is what is. People talk shit all the time. If this is a revelation to you or you think it’s a strict Republican phenemenom than it’s your own pretensions that need attending to. > [@](#): > > Wow. I stand by my above statement re: intelligence. But now it’s not so much questioning as amazement. Well, I **am** amazing. > [@](#): > > It obviously means a great deal to you to not have your party of choice wrong or misguided or even corrupt and manipulative in any way. So, despite mounting evidence to the contrary, you believe the Reps to be above reproach, using that old chestnut that never helped a teenager yet–the ole, “but everyone does it, so it’s ok” argument? I didn’t say it’s ok. I said it doesn’t bother me. I am underwhelmed by Cox’s mendacity. It doesn’t even blip on my radar screen. I cannot even pretend to be dismayed, surprised. I can’t even summon a “tssk tskk.” > [@](#): > > What would it take for you to frown upon the actions of these elected officials? Well, a lot more integrity in general would be de riguer before I could tune my offensibility apparatus so fine as to take notice of such a high-pitched and innocuous fart in the veritable bathysphere filled of bean-eaters that is current environment. > [@](#): > > Or are you, like so many other Reps, giving them a free ride because they lowered your taxes by a few hundred bucks? Personal (small) gain at the cost of increasing world animosity towards us(aka jingoism), preventing (nay, encouraging) more damage to the enviroment, the loss of respect for the separation of church and state, the overburdening of future generations, the curtailment of the press–is this enough for you? If this is true–I can only shake my head. > > That’s incredible. It is incredibly sad. You were doing so well, and now you’re being a dimwit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you think Republicans are evil because you’ve described all these nasty generalizations and taken the simpleton’s route of assigning them to the opposition so you can dismiss them and feel good about yourself. Take that thinking and stick it where the sun don’t shine. Start operating on a level that doesn’t assume your conclusions and villify your opponents and then come back to me… or don’t, and choose to remain a comfortable flake instead. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/67 "2005-02-23T02:17:58Z")
No, it is not simply a matter of “rhetorical bullshit” , spread innocently on the garden of credulity. The people attending Mr. Cox’s flights of fantasy are men actually in positions of power, Mr. Cheney participates in decisions that get people dead. Lots of them. If Mr. Cox was, indeed, saying something that he believed, his audience believed, and Mssrs. Cheney, Hyde and other unindicted coconspirators believe, then men making desperately important positions are ill-informed. I think we can agree this is not a good thing. The other plausible alternative is that some of them know it isn’t true, but are entirely content to keep that discreetly to themselves. Not much better. Howard Dean is entirely irrelevent to these issues. He most certainly wasn’t there, and he is in no real position of power (outside of his Svengali like grip on the hive mind of the Democratic Party, of course…). He has a considerable laxity when it comes to “rhetorical bullshit”. 'Cause the ain’t getting anybody killed. Of course, we thank friend **Scylla** for his unsparing commentary on our many, many faults. We are all well advised to reflect upon his example, the very paragon of calm and reasoned discourse. One weeps that he so kindly and generously disposed is set upon by rabid liberals and publicly savaged. Cue music: _Don’t Cry for Me, Argentina_ ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/68 "2005-02-23T02:33:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If Mr. Cox was, indeed, saying something that he believed, his audience believed, and Mssrs. Cheney, Hyde and other unindicted coconspirators believe, then men making desperately important positions are ill-informed. I think we can agree this is not a good thing. The other plausible alternative is that some of them know it isn’t true, but are entirely content to keep that discreetly to themselves. Not much better. Republicans blowing smoke up each other’s asses!!! God forbid! Sound the alarm! > [@](#): > > Howard Dean is entirely irrelevent to these issues. You don’t need to qualify that. “Irrelevant” is just fine. > [@](#): > > he is in no real position of power So, you are saying that Democrats are free to say stupid shit because they are irrelevant and powerless, and Republicans aren’t because they are meaningful and potent? It is the moral, intellectual (and sexual) superiority of Republicans that necessitates a higher standard? A surprising argument from you. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/69 "2005-02-23T12:02:03Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Republicans blowing smoke up each other’s asses!!! God forbid! Sound the alarm! You’ve seen the Jeff Gannon website too? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/70 "2005-02-23T14:06:11Z")
The much admired Mr. Cox responds: > **[Cox responds on Salon WMD quote](https://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2005/02/cox_responds_on.html)** > > I called Rep. Chris Cox's office this morning to ask if he had been accurately quoted in the Salon article I posted on over the weekend, which includes this passage: Vice President Dick Cheney, a regular CPAC speaker, gave the... He was misquoted, and his source is the very font of all that is fair and balanced: Fox News. You see, he was not talking about WMD in a general way, but the ghastly and evil plan to package nerve agents and bio-weapons in perfume bottles. So that little twit at Bloomie’s runs up and spritzes you with sarin/ricin, says “Obsession!” and you drop dead. The link cited goes into much greater detail, and it would appear that Mr. Cox may have a case, in that he was not, in fact, suggesting anything remotely plausible but a bat-shit crazy plot that, apparently, was reported by the aforementioned Fox News as fact. But even there, he is exaggerating, as you can read for yourself at above. Not even FoxNews ever said anything so hysterically fallacious, but with a bit of creative imagination… Mr. Cox is chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee. I advise panic. I note, in passing, that friend **Scylla** is reduced to sophomoric and juvenile mockery. As this is as close to an admission of defeat as he is capable of, I generously accept. In that same spirit of generosity, I accept a premise of his, that Mr. Cox was, indeed, slightly misrepresented. His actual thesis was sheer lunacy, and did not even have the shred of plausibility he was credited with. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/71 "2005-02-23T14:53:03Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I didn’t say it’s ok. I said it doesn’t bother me. I am underwhelmed by Cox’s mendacity. It doesn’t even blip on my radar screen. I cannot even pretend to be dismayed, surprised. I can’t even summon a “tssk tskk.” > > You were doing so well, and now you’re being a dimwit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you think Republicans are evil because you’ve described all these nasty generalizations and taken the simpleton’s route of assigning them to the opposition so you can dismiss them and feel good about yourself. Take that thinking and stick it where the sun don’t shine. Start operating on a level that doesn’t assume your conclusions and villify your opponents and then come back to me… > > or don’t, and choose to remain a comfortable flake instead. I am struck dumb by such eloquence! Heavens! Calling someone names and attempting to dismiss questions via scathing remarks is a poor technique for true discussion–but I’ll grant you, it is a hallmark of the Republican party. You need to take a page from your own book and start “operating on a level that doesn’t assume your conclusions and villify your opponents”. but don’t bother coming back to me–what is that phrase about teaching a pig to dance? Oh, yes, it just wears you out and makes the pig mad. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/72 "2005-02-23T23:52:21Z")
Lucy: Seeing as you’ve come forth with evidence to suggest that I was right from the beginning and Cox was misquoted by vindictive and mendacious lying liberal, as usually the case in these matters.(Props by the way, for bringing it out,) you can hardly be claiming victory. Now, it’s pretty clear that you folks owe Mr. Cox an apology. More so, I think you owe a debt of gratitude to this administration which has protected you from the undeniable threat of Iraqi perfume. Eleanor: > [@](#): > > I am struck dumb by such eloquence! Heavens! I have that effect. > [@](#): > > Calling someone names and attempting to dismiss questions via scathing remarks is a poor technique for true discussion–but I’ll grant you, it is a hallmark of the Republican party You see, that’s just stupid prejudiced bullshit, and you’re quite the hypocrite to talk about namecalling when your initial contribution was to insult the intelligence of Republicans everywhere based on a mendacious misquotation. It don’t reflect on Democrats in general but your views make you a dope. > [@](#): > > You need to take a page from your own book and start “operating on a level that doesn’t assume your conclusions and villify your opponents”. I haven’t. You’ve vilified and ridiculed yourself with your own statements. I didn’t do it. > [@](#): > > but don’t bother coming back to me You say that now but once you see me do the Lambada you’ll melt. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/73 "2005-02-24T00:29:18Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Lucy: > > Seeing as you’ve come forth with evidence to suggest that I was right from the beginning and Cox was misquoted by vindictive and mendacious lying liberal, as usually the case in these matters.(Props by the way, for bringing it out,) you can hardly be claiming victory. > > Now, it’s pretty clear that you folks owe Mr. Cox an apology. More so, I think you owe a debt of gratitude to this administration which has protected you from the undeniable threat of Iraqi perfume. The truth is more repulsive than the (very slight) misrepresentation. You want us to apologize for calling a child molestor a jay-walker? Forget it. If Mr. Cox actually believes the drivel he laid out, he hasn’t got the good sense God gave a goose. If he doesn’t believe it…and given his position and access to facts, its hard to see how he could be so ill-informed…then he has no claim to my respect, nor yours, for that matter. Tell you what: I’ll consider apologizing for my vindictive and harsh analysis of Mr. Cox the day after you apologize for calling Kerry a traitor. When it comes to wildly exaggerated accusations, you have no standing to criticize. None whatsoever. > [@](#): > > …You say that now but once you see me do the Lambada you’ll melt. Warn us first, that we might have time to gouge out our eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/74 "2005-02-24T00:42:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Tell you what: I’ll consider apologizing for my vindictive and harsh analysis of Mr. Cox the day after you apologize for calling Kerry a traitor. When it comes to wildly exaggerated accusations, you have no standing to criticize. None whatsoever. Bullshit, boyo. **My** opinion was formed carefully from research including two authorized biographies of Kerry, his own words and testimony, and the Swiftvets book. My opinion is careful and informed. You just clicked on a half-assed link and put your foot in your mouth. > [@](#): > > Warn us first, that we might have time to gouge out our eyes. The Lambada was not “The Forbidden Dance” until I did it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/75 "2005-02-24T01:21:49Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Bullshit, boyo. **My** opinion was formed carefully from research including two authorized biographies of Kerry, his own words and testimony, and the Swiftvets book. My opinion is careful and informed… And wrong. We went all over that, as I pointed out to you any number of inconsistencies in your sources and several outright lies. Your opinion places you directly in the midst of some of the most extremely rabid right wingers currently extant. The company you keep, and all that. If the Freepers are your kind of people, that’s hunky-dory by me. But your claims of fairness and balance impress only yourself. In case you hadn’t noticed. Then again, perhaps that’s the whole point. > [@](#): > > …You just clicked on a half-assed link and put your foot in your mouth… Not a bit of it. The lies Mr. Cox told were even more extreme and ludicrous that the lies attributed to him. Saddam plotting to poison the American public with lethal perfume bottles? You couldn’t sell that plot to anyone with enough good sense to come in out of a shitstorm. If his remarks were reported with complete accuracy, he looks either an idiot or a propagandist of the lowest order. You keep trying to raise the _reporting_ of his remarks to be the substantive issue, if you can’t distract us into a conversation about Mr. Dean’s relative mental health. Nobody fell for it, but you’re welcome to keep trying. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/76 "2005-02-24T01:51:17Z")
So let me get this straight. 1. You post a partisan liberal link which that misquotes a congressman in order to attack him 2. You ridicule me for my healthy skepticism on the accuracy 3. You and several others indict the man, the administration and republicans in gerneral, saying that we **distort reality** 4. It turns out that I’m right and he was maliciously misquoted and his words distorted to better ridicule him 5. This vindicates you in your thesis that Republicans distort reality? Do I need to point out to you that the people doing the lying and distorting of reality here were not Republicans? You were so pissed off at Cox when you thought he told a factual untruth. Somehow it doesn’t bother you that you’ve been duped into falsely maligning the man, and encouraged others to do so here? Not only are you being hypocritical, to say you are distorting reality would be an understatement. You appear to be making up your own as you go along. Anyway, this horse is dead. I must certainly acknowledge again that it was rather decent of you to break the news on the falsehood of the story. I’ll leave the final words with you, put on my dancing shoe, and bid you a fond adieu. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/77 "2005-02-24T02:07:30Z")
Time out time! **Scylla** …you go to that corner. **elucidator** …you go to that one over there. It don’t matter. The US is going down the tubes. Why fight about it? Just enjoy the time we have left. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/78 "2005-02-24T02:10:11Z")
Put on some mellow jams…mix a few drinks. Might I suggest some J Mark Bailey? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/79 "2005-02-24T02:28:53Z")
Why would I dance with someone who shows themself to be petty and domineering? Sweetie–my dance card is full. But you’re cute when you’re righteous. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936/80 "2005-02-24T02:37:02Z")
**elucidator** , mon ami I had some fear that the sarcasm of your follow up post pertaining to Cox’s “clarifying” remarks would be lost on fiend **Scylla** , and it looks as if I was right. How predictably sad. There may be hope. Perhaps he is attempting to wriggle out of an embarrassing spot with a double reverse whoosh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flexibility-of-reality-and-the-gop/290936.md?page=5)