# The Flight KAL007 Disaster-How Culpable Was the USA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238 "2009-06-18T23:54:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/21 "2009-06-20T02:16:20Z")
[QUOTE=sailor] It is not like the Soviets did not have good reason to be suspicious. The USA has a long history of flying close to or into airspaces just to see what responses were triggered. So, no, it is not inconceivable. [/QUOTE] Do you have a cite that the US repeatedly flew close to Soviet air space in planes loaded with civilian passengers? Certainly we over flew them with our spy planes…which is probably what we would have used if we really wanted to over fly their installations. That or used a spy satellite. > [@](#): > > The notion that the Soviets blew a civilian airliner out of the air just for the heck of it is silly. It is what America tried to claim but it is just silly. I’m unaware that the US’s official position was that the Soviet’s blew it up for the hell of it. Fight my ignorance. My own understanding was that the US thought the Soviet’s fucked up and shot down the plane by accident and then attempted to cover their collective asses by concocting a story about it being a spy plane or some such non-sense like that. You know, the whole ‘confiscated the flight recorders’ deal, along with the ‘blocked the international investigation’ thingy. But, if you have data to the contrary then I’m all ears…feel free to put it in. -XT ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/22 "2009-06-20T03:58:05Z")
The USA during the entire cold war and after ran spy planes up and down the coasts of different countries, including China and the Soviet Union. Among other things the purpose was to trigger defense radars and sites and record the response. Many incidents resulted from such flights, including the collision with a Chinese fighter plane which forced the American plane to land in Hainan island. I thought this was common knowledge. > [@](#): > > [http://www.akfiles.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-49504](http://www.akfiles.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-49504) > > Days prior to the Tonkin Gulf incident I was a 2nd class Radarman stationed aboard the USS Edson, DD946. Destroyer Squadron 13, the “Black Cat” squadron. I was the ship’s ELINT specialist. ELINT(electronic intelligence) was a relatively new technology at that time. We were working in conjunction with the Air Force based out of Atsugi AFB in Japan. Our mission was to cruise 12 miles off the coast of China and the airforce would overfly in and out of the 12 mi. zone in an attempt to trigger Chinese radar stations. My specific job was to record on video and audio the radar signals we picked up using specialized equipment. Strictly a data collection exercise so we could catalog Chinese search and fire control radar systems. We were expected to continue this operation on an off for approx 6 mos. > [@](#): > > wikipedia > > The shootdown happened at a very tense time in U.S.-Soviet relations during the Cold War. The U.S. adopted a strategy of releasing a substantial amount of hitherto highly classified intelligence information in order to exploit a major propaganda advantage over the U.S.S.R. > … > On September 5, 1983, U.S. President Ronald Reagan condemned the shooting down of the airplane as the “Korean airline massacre”, a “crime against humanity [that] must never be forgotten” and an “act of barbarism … [and] inhuman brutality”.[79] ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/23 "2009-06-20T04:25:45Z")
[QUOTE=sailor] I thought this was common knowledge. [/QUOTE] I was and is…it’s also not what I was asking you for. You see, there is sort of a difference between an Air Force spy plane and a Korean air liner. Here is what you said and what I was responding too: > [@](#): > > It is not like the Soviets did not have good reason to be suspicious. The USA has a long history of flying close to or into airspaces just to see what responses were triggered. So, no, it is not inconceivable. The US had a long history of flying close to and even into Soviet air space WITH SPY PLANES…not with commercial air liners. So…it’s pretty inconceivable that the US would use a KAL airliner full of passengers to spy on some Soviet installations over Kamchatka for gods sake. We had, you know, SPY PLANES for that…and satellite and such. And it’s not like the Soviet’s didn’t know it was a commercial air liner either…they checked it out before they shot it up. And, this wasn’t exactly a reflex shot in a panic…the pilot radioed back for instructions and to confirm the attack order. They fucked up…probably some low level flunky decided to authorize the pilot shoot the thing down for gods know what reason. The Soviet’s then closed ranks, confiscated the evidence and concocted the story about thinking it was a spy plane. This doesn’t even come close to passing the smell test, and frankly if it was the US shooting that sucker down there is no way we’d see this kind of hand waving away of the incident. What’s your feeling about IR655, for instance? As for your Wiki quote, no where does he (Reagan) that the Soviet’s shot the plane down just for the hell of it…again, this isn’t what you seemed to be claiming earlier, and what I was responding to, nor what I was asking you for. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/24 "2009-06-20T04:26:02Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I disagree. The pilot said more than that (which you conveniently withhold). He said it made no difference whether it was a civilian plane because civilian planes could be and were outfitted for spying ops. So when he said that he believed it was a civilian plane he was referring to the type of plane, not to the fact that it was full of inoccent passengers as you seem to imply. Do you have a cite for that? The only possible argument I’ve heard for ‘accident’ is that the pilot mistook the plane for a KC-135. But the transcript shows the pilot actually reporting that he could see the rows of windows down the side, and that the navigation lights and beacon were on. It’s interesting that you’d make a veiled accusation that I was being misleading here. I reported exactly what I remember. I never saw a transcript of the pilot in the air saying that there was ‘no difference whether it was a civilian plane’. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/25 "2009-06-20T04:35:56Z")
Hell, it was used in _The Spy Who Came in From the Cold,_ IIRC. OTOH, a recent episode of Nova claimed that the first roll of film dropped by CORONA had more and better intel than all of the U2 overflights. By 1983 I suppose it’s safe to assume that the US had dropped all pretenses and was using its own aircraft on those sniffing missions, same as the Soviets were doing. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/26 "2009-06-20T04:37:55Z")
Not “just for the hell of it” but “Korean airline massacre”, a “crime against humanity [that] must never be forgotten” and an “act of barbarism … [and] inhuman brutality”.[79] " Not “an unfortunate accident” but “a crime against humanity”. Close enough for me. America made a deliberate effort to exploit the incident for propaganda purposes. And the point is that the soviets had reason to be suspicious of any plane which was in that area and that it was not clearly identified as what it was. It was definitely a mistake caused by the high tensions. Now, I’d like to know if someone can explain how the USA bombed by “mistake” the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999. Because it is not like the Embassy had moved off-course. I am convinced there is a lot about these incidents which the public never gets to know. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/27 "2009-06-20T04:54:09Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Hell, it was used in _The Spy Who Came in From the Cold,_ IIRC. OTOH, a recent episode of Nova claimed that the first roll of film dropped by CORONA had more and better intel than all of the U2 overflights. By 1983 I suppose it’s safe to assume that the US had dropped all pretenses and was using its own aircraft on those sniffing missions, same as the Soviets were doing. Slight hijack, unfortunately. _The Spy Who Came in From the Cold_ doesn’t have anything to do with any airplanes, as I recall. But a great scene, in both the book and the movie, at Checkpoint Charlie. But I recommend the book, and then the _Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy_ trilogy. Get thee to a bookstore or lilbrary! ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/28 "2009-06-20T06:53:44Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > And the point is that the soviets had reason to be suspicious of any plane which was in that area and that it was not clearly identified as what it was. It was definitely a mistake caused by the high tensions. Sure they did , between spy sats, submarines well within soviet waters , SR-71 overflights and elint aircraft doing figure 8 tracks around soviet installations, naval bases and dolphin watching, there probably was not much that was not unknown about the soviets. Had that Korean airliner actually mounted some sort of elint gear, I have no doubt that the soviets would have paraded it in public and made a spectacle of it, the photos of Francis Gary Power and the remains of his U-2 were displayed for all the world to see. Thats how things were done. The soviets drew a line in the clouds and set an example of why soverign airspace , is exactly that. Previously they had forced another Korean airliner to land at a Soviet base, some years before that. Consequently the only nation operating spying equipment on airliners , was surprise , surprise , AeroFlot. > [@sailor](#): > > Now, I’d like to know if someone can explain how the USA bombed by “mistake” the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999. Because it is not like the Embassy had moved off-course. > > I am convinced there is a lot about these incidents which the public never gets to know. This is the same airforce that got one of its F-117 shot down through inattention to detail, could not find or separate the majority of the Serbian army from decoys that had been set up, was forced by political pressure to bomb from higher altitudes to minimize casualties among aircrew. That it was the chinese embassy was happenstance, it could quite well have been the danish embassy or the argentine embassy. But because it was the chinese, it was assumed by many to be a message to the chinese govt., I’m pretty sure that if you ask ordinary serbians, that a number of different buildings were hit that had no military value, but because of cold war maps may have been on someones targeting list and had not been updated in years. I would also bring to your attention that it was the clinton not the Reagan or Bush admin , whose watch this occured on, one noted for its friendliness to the chinese and pushing trade, so its not really likely that this was a strike at china authorised by the admin, there are better ways of doing something like that. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/29 "2009-06-20T07:14:00Z")
The USA was responsible, directly or indirectly? The myth is BUSTED! ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/30 "2009-06-20T15:43:22Z")
> [@Notassmartasithought](#): > > Slight hijack, unfortunately. > > _The Spy Who Came in From the Cold_ doesn’t have anything to do with any airplanes, as I recall. But a great scene, in both the book and the movie, at Checkpoint Charlie. But I recommend the book, and then the _Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy_ trilogy. Get thee to a bookstore or lilbrary! Just to hijack a hijack, the scene **dropzone** is thinking of comes from the beginning of **The Looking Glass War** , which was a pretty good read. As far as the US being responsible in any way for KAL007, absolutely not. As has been pointed out, the Russians had plenty of chances to verify the fact that they were dealing with a civilian liner. Moreover, I seem to recall a theory that the flight had actually passed through Soviet airspace and had reached international airspace when actually shot down, although I might be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/31 "2009-06-21T01:13:17Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Hell, it was used in _The Spy Who Came in From the Cold,_ IIRC. Actually it was _The Looking Glass War_. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238/32 "2009-06-22T07:15:05Z")
_The Looking Glass War_ it is; so long since I’d read it that I forgot. I still say get thee to a library for the rest of the Le Carre stories! On an equally serious note, there is no proximate cause of the shoot down of the Korean Airlines flight or the Iranian Airlines flight, except for the general set of tensions between the countries involved. Were the tensions not there, the incidents wouldn’t have occurred. Who do you want to blame? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-flight-kal007-disaster-how-culpable-was-the-usa/500238.md?page=1)