# The Florida and Michigan delegates **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350 "2008-03-06T18:17:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/1 "2008-03-06T18:17:54Z")
There is talk of asking Florida and Michigan to have a do-over primary so the delegates will count in the Democratic Primary. The states were “punished” for moving up their primary by having their delegates not count, but now, since the vote is so close, it appears there will be a scramble to make them count. There’s a lot of discussion over who is going to pay for the re-do, with Governor Crist of Florida saying the taxpayers could pay for it (gee, thanks, guv), and Senator Bill Nelson saying [the DNC needs to pay for it](http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/sen.-bill-nelson-paints-florida-train-wreck-scenario-2008-03-06.html) and Howard Dean saying uh-uh, we need our money for the national campaign, ask the state committee to cough up the dough. Now, maybe I’m missing something, but I’ve never heard anybody ask this question. In Florida, Clinton won on Jan 29. But what happens if there’s a do-over and Obama wins? Then what? Or is that not an issue? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/2 "2008-03-06T18:26:29Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] In Florida, Clinton won on Jan 29. But what happens if there’s a do-over and Obama wins? [/QUOTE] Then Obama wins (a proportional share of Florida’s Dem delegates, who are not apportioned on a winner-take-all basis). Why else have a do-over at all? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/3 "2008-03-06T18:28:53Z")
If everyone involved, both candidates and voters, is operating under the assumption that a particular vote doesn’t “count” (as I believe Florida voters and the candidates understood), then you can’t turn around and count it. It’s inaccurate, IMHO. If they revote, while I don’t think that’s the right thing to do, at least both the voters and candidates go into the vote knowing that it counts. Huge difference, IMHO. So, again IMHO, if they revote, then I believe it’s fair. If they try to count the previous vote, it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/4 "2008-03-06T18:34:35Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] Now, maybe I’m missing something, but I’ve never heard anybody ask this question. In Florida, Clinton won on Jan 29. But what happens if there’s a do-over and Obama wins? Then what? Or is that not an issue? [/QUOTE] Both candidates will have to agree to the outcome from the beginning if there is a re-do. So no crying from either side if there is a re-do, and even though she appears above the rules at times, that means Clinton too can’t cry if she loses. I’m not 100% that there will be a re-do. Dean this morning was quite adament that there wouldn’t be unless they have a hearing in July…JULY!! ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/5 "2008-03-06T18:45:01Z")
As a Democrat living in Michigan, my personal feeling is that if a complete do-over of the primary is impossible, then it’s more fair _not_ to count our votes. Given that Obama wasn’t even on the ballot and many voters stayed home knowing their votes wouldn’t count, it’s completely disingenuous to suggest that the results of the primary reflect an actual preference for Clinton among Michigan’s Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/6 "2008-03-06T18:46:42Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Both candidates will have to agree to the outcome from the beginning if there is a re-do. So no crying from either side if there is a re-do, and even though she appears above the rules at times, that means Clinton too can’t cry if she loses. [/QUOTE] That would be very ironic…Clinton needs those delegates, but under the rules, she can’t claim them. Do it over! Oops, Obama wins, and he gets the delegates now. ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/7 "2008-03-06T19:17:30Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] That would be very ironic…Clinton needs those delegates, but under the rules, she can’t claim them. Do it over! Oops, Obama wins, and he gets the delegates now. [/QUOTE] No, true irony would be if the revote showed the same results as the first early primary… Except Michigan taxpayers are out another 10 million during a recession. They get nailed with the cost of another primary because they were trying to gain more influence in the nomination process and highlight the economic issues facing Michigan. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/8 "2008-03-06T19:19:02Z")
I voted for Edwards. Can I do that again? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/9 "2008-03-06T19:22:23Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] I voted for Edwards. Can I do that again? [/QUOTE] Only if you first declare an opposite zone. Or declare it oppositely by **not** declaring it – no, wait, that’s how we did it **last** week . . . ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/10 "2008-03-06T19:37:11Z")
[QUOTE=Keweenaw] No, true irony would be if the revote showed the same results as the first early primary… Except Michigan taxpayers are out another 10 million during a recession. [/QUOTE] I guess it all comes down to this…either count the delegates or don’t count them. Either way, no do-over. Both states have had primaries…as I understand it, it’s the DNC who is deciding not to count the delegates. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/11 "2008-03-06T19:41:41Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] I guess it all comes down to this…either count the delegates or don’t count them. Either way, no do-over. Both states have had primaries…as I understand it, it’s the DNC who is deciding not to count the delegates. [/QUOTE] Then you can’t count the delegates in MI since Obama wasn’t even on the ballot. That would be resoundingly unfair, even if you assume “undecided” votes go to Obama. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/12 "2008-03-06T19:51:34Z")
The DNC decided not to count them. So maybe they should just stay uncounted. What an unholy mess…why should it matter when the individual states decide to hold their primaries? There’s no federal law on this, is there? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/13 "2008-03-06T19:55:02Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] What an unholy mess… [/quote] You just noticed that…? 😉 > [@](#): > > why should it matter when the individual states decide to hold their primaries? There’s no federal law on this, is there? No, the feds can’t interfere in stuff like that. The DNC (and the RNC, for that matter) want some control over which state has its primary when. Unfortunately, the only real power they have is to mess with the delegate seating. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/14 "2008-03-06T20:04:23Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] \ What an unholy mess…why should it matter when the individual states decide to hold their primaries? There’s no federal law on this, is there? [/QUOTE] The problem is that if there’s not some sort of control, the states will just leapfrog in front of each other to ensure that their primary is first. Heck, New Hampshire’s state law says theirs has to take place before anybody else’s, IIRC. If this was allowed to go on unchecked, we’d be voting now for the 2012 primaries! ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/15 "2008-03-06T20:33:03Z")
Quick question: did the DNC declare the penalty _before_ FL and MI moved their dates up? If so, screw 'em. Florida and Michigan knowingly disenfranchised their own voters. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/16 "2008-03-06T20:38:58Z")
[QUOTE=Jurph] Quick question: did the DNC declare the penalty _before_ FL and MI moved their dates up? If so, screw 'em. Florida and Michigan knowingly disenfranchised their own voters. [/QUOTE] Yes. Florida and Michigan were told exactly what the consequences to their actions would be. They played a game of “I dare you” and lost. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/17 "2008-03-06T20:40:54Z")
[QUOTE=Jurph] Quick question: did the DNC declare the penalty _before_ FL and MI moved their dates up? If so, screw 'em. Florida and Michigan knowingly disenfranchised their own voters. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Florida] The DNC Rules Committee met on August 25, 2007 and ruled that Florida would have 30 days to move its primary date at least 7 days later than the current date of January 29, or else lose all of its delegates in the Democratic primary. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Michigan] On December 1, 2007, the Democratic National Committee voted to deny Michigan’s request to hold its primary on January 15 and declared that Michigan’s delegates would not count in the nominating contest unless Michigan moved its primary to a later date.[29] That said, the Michigan Supreme Court ruled that the primary could go ahead as scheduled. [/QUOTE] From: [2008 Democratic Party presidential primaries - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_primary_2008) ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/18 "2008-03-06T21:51:37Z")
Then shouldn’t the DNC follow their rules, which Florida and Michigan broke? Or is that pot of uncounted delegates too much temptation? From what I’ve read, the math won’t work without Florida and Michigan’s delegates. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/19 "2008-03-06T21:59:49Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] Then shouldn’t the DNC follow their rules, which Florida and Michigan broke? Or is that pot of uncounted delegates too much temptation? From what I’ve read, the math won’t work without Florida and Michigan’s delegates. [/QUOTE] Where’d you read that? The figure of 2,024 does not include FL or MI delegates. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/20 "2008-03-06T22:12:19Z")
Okay, then I read that wrong. I [got the sense](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8V86DDO0&show_article=1) that neither Clinton or Obama could clinch the nomination now with the remaining states still to vote, which is why Michigan and Florida were so important. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350.md?page=2)