# The Florida and Michigan delegates **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350 "2008-03-06T18:17:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/21 "2008-03-06T22:28:07Z")
Regarding the Michigan move.. I’ll post this Washington Post article again. [Michigan Primary Move Splits Democrats](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/08/AR2007100801511_pf.html) > [@](#): > > After the 2004 election, the DNC agreed to review the schedule with an eye toward tempering the importance of Iowa and New Hampshire. It added Nevada and South Carolina, states with more Hispanic and black voters, respectively, as the second and fourth stops on the primary tour. > > Michigan’s political leaders were disappointed not to be added to the first four but went along, expecting that other states would abide by the new calendar. When the dates started to shift – and particularly when Gardner said New Hampshire would move up – they considered the deal broken. > > Levin and Debbie Dingell took their case to DNC Chairman Howard Dean last month, complaining that he was standing by silently as New Hampshire broke its promise. They asked Dean to urge Democrats not to campaign there. > > “Someone,” the two wrote, “has to take on New Hampshire’s transparent effort to violate the DNC rules and to maintain its privileged position.” Michigan had agreed to the primary calendar which was voted on a year and a half ago. New Hampshire was the first to fuck it up when it jumped ahead of Nevada. ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/22 "2008-03-06T22:35:36Z")
[QUOTE=Keweenaw] No, true irony would be if the revote showed the same results as the first early primary… Except Michigan taxpayers are out another 10 million during a recession. They get nailed with the cost of another primary because they were trying to gain more influence in the nomination process and highlight the economic issues facing Michigan. [/QUOTE] Maybe Michigan’s hit some hard times because their voters don’t understand cause and effect. Whose fault is this if not the state of Michigan? Every state wants attention during a national election. Most aren’t lucky enough to be elector-rich swing states like Florida and Michigan. If a proper primary or caucus happens in either state without a dime from the DNC, then it’d be fine to seat them. Otherwise I say fuck 'em. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/23 "2008-03-06T22:38:12Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] Then shouldn’t the DNC follow their rules, which Florida and Michigan broke? Or is that pot of uncounted delegates too much temptation? [/quote] Yes and no. The DNC is free to change its rules whenever it wants. It should do what is best for the party-- that’s what it is there for. If changing the rules is best for the party, then they should change the rules. The key is figuring out just what is best for the party, as a whole. > [@](#): > > From what I’ve read, the math won’t work without Florida and Michigan’s delegates. Mainly because it’s not winner take all. It’s a close race, and they will likely split the delegates pretty evenly like they did in other states. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/24 "2008-03-07T01:01:46Z")
Ironically ,we made the jump to get more relevant. Now if we wait til June Michigan and Fla. could be the deciding states. Worked perfect;y. New elections in both states would cost about 25 mill. Suggestions have been for both candidates to kick in equally and do it over. Another is to do it by mail. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/25 "2008-03-07T02:23:14Z")
Yet another reason why the states should stay out of primaries. I’ve said it a million times, the states have to pay millions of dollars to run elections for a private organization. And then the private organization says, “Fuck you! You need to run it our way!” then states should say, “Fuck you! Run it and pay for it yourself!” BUT WAIT!!! That’s asking Republicans and Democrats to not spend TAXPAYER MONEY to run these little private elections for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/26 "2008-03-07T15:03:45Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] I [got the sense](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8V86DDO0&show_article=1) that neither Clinton or Obama could clinch the nomination now with the remaining states still to vote, which is why Michigan and Florida were so important. [/QUOTE] That’s because there are superdelegates. Neither candidate is likely to win enough _pledged_ delegates to clinch the nomination, in the remaining primaries and caucuses. But when the superdelegates finally make up their mind, one candidate (obviously) is bound to win. ---
**Author:** ![E72521](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dbc845/32.png) [@E72521](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E72521)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/27 "2008-03-08T20:09:14Z")
In Florida, the GOP controlled legislature and Gov Don’t-Worry-Be-Happy are the ones responsible for moving the primary to 1/29. Sen Nelson has proposed a redo by mail. Since the legislature caused the problem in the first place, it’s only fair for them to pick up the tab. Obama would have to accept, or come out looking like he doesn’t want all the votes counted. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/28 "2008-03-08T20:57:07Z")
[QUOTE=E72521] In Florida, the GOP controlled legislature and Gov Don’t-Worry-Be-Happy are the ones responsible for moving the primary to 1/29. Sen Nelson has proposed a redo by mail. Since the legislature caused the problem in the first place, it’s only fair for them to pick up the tab. Obama would have to accept, or come out looking like he doesn’t want all the votes counted. [/QUOTE] Why would Obama _have_ to accept, etc.? I agree with those who say this an unholy mess, but Florida and Michigan both _knew_ what would happen if they moved their primaries up. Since there are so many issues to consider (format, financial, time constraints) why not leave it the way it is? I realize Florida and Michigan voters are disenfranchised but take that up with the state entities who defied the DNC which has the ultimate say-so on which delegates are seated; again, they knew the consequences going in. In the meantime let the candidates and the national committee work it out behind the scenes\* or just wait and let the superdelegates decide at the convention, as agonizing as that might be. Here’s a take on [the math](http://www.newsweek.com/id/119010/page/1), even with FL & MI being counted in a do-over. Yes, it’s slanted against Hillary, but the math seems sound. - pressure on one to drop out, the two to join up – which seems like what will happens if the split fairly evenly in a do-over. This all seems live the 51.0 do-over [game](http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/Kahn_Games/2008/03/07/What_a_long_strange_game_this_is?GT1=39002) today between the Miami Heat and the Atlanta Hawks. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/29 "2008-03-08T21:11:29Z")
The math is irrelevant. Punishing the voters for a stupid decision is also wrong…More than that, skipping 2 large states would not provide an honest appraisal. They need to be counted. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/30 "2008-03-08T21:21:43Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] The math is irrelevant. Punishing the voters for a stupid decision is also wrong..More than that, skipping 2 large states would not provide an honest appraisal. They need to be counted. [/QUOTE] Among other considerations in discussing whether do-overs are feasible, the math does matter. I don’t want anyone to be left out either, but _if_ (of course, no one _knows_) it’s thought that these two states, who knowingly chose to be stripped of their delegates, won’t change or hasten the outcome, it should be part of the equation. This has to be solved practicably and if money can be a consideration, why not the math? Except for the mention of the Florida legislature and governor above, I’m not sure who made the decision to go ahead and move the dates up. However, during that process and while knowing what the DNC would do, was there any hue and cry from hoi polloi to them regarding disenfranchisement or being punished? Or was it allowed to go through for the perceived glory of “counting more”? And what Jurph said. ---
**Author:** ![E72521](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dbc845/32.png) [@E72521](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E72521)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/31 "2008-03-08T21:56:36Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] Among other considerations in discussing whether do-overs are feasible, the math does matter. I don’t want anyone to be left out either, but _if_ (of course, no one _knows_) it’s thought that these two states, who knowingly chose to be stripped of their delegates, won’t change or hasten the outcome, it should be part of the equation. This has to be solved practicably and if money can be a consideration, why not the math? Except for the mention of the Florida legislature and governor above, I’m not sure who made the decision to go ahead and move the dates up. However, during that process and while knowing what the DNC would do, was there any hue and cry from hoi polloi to them regarding disenfranchisement or being punished? Or was it allowed to go through for the perceived glory of “counting more”? And what Jurph said. [/QUOTE] I recall the press and the state saying that there was no way that Dean was not going to seat the delegates. Everyone seemed to think he was going to blink. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2008, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/32 "2008-03-08T22:00:13Z")
[QUOTE=E72521] I recall the press and the state saying that there was no way that Dean was not going to seat the delegates. Everyone seemed to think he was going to blink. [/QUOTE] I read just the opposite but you might be right. I’ll try to find the cite and post it today or tomorrow. Even if Dean decides to seat them, I still dont’ think it’s right, given they were told what would happen by the governing body if they did. Some people are saying if Dean/the DNC capitulate some Democratic voters will become disillusioned. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/33 "2008-03-09T02:00:33Z")
[QUOTE=Saint Cad] Yet another reason why the states should stay out of primaries. I’ve said it a million times, the states have to pay millions of dollars to run elections for a private organization. And then the private organization says, “Fuck you! You need to run it our way!” then states should say, “Fuck you! Run it and pay for it yourself!” BUT WAIT!!! That’s asking Republicans and Democrats to not spend TAXPAYER MONEY to run these little private elections for themselves. [/QUOTE] I don’t recall a time when the parties demanded of the states that they hold primaries. The parties opened up the process to give all states the option of doing so, and most states apparently decided they liked that idea. There’s absolutely nothing preventing states from deciding NOT to hold primaries. A handful of states still don’t. What’s stupid is when states, knowing the parties’ requirements for _counting_ the results of primaries, hold one in a manner that fails to meet those requirements, then bitches that one of the parties has failed to include the results in its counts. Maybe the taxpayers of MI and FL should be asking their legislatures just why they decided to waste X millions of dollars on primaries that they knew wouldn’t count. Seems that if anyone ‘punished’ the voters of those states, it’s the legislatures. Maybe the voters should vote the appropriate bums out in November. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/34 "2008-03-09T02:12:02Z")
[QUOTE=E72521] In Florida, the GOP controlled legislature and Gov Don’t-Worry-Be-Happy are the ones responsible for moving the primary to 1/29. [/QUOTE] They are? The Democrats in the legislature voted against it, did they? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/35 "2008-03-09T04:05:17Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] They are? The Democrats in the legislature voted against it, did they? [/QUOTE] Well, [they voted against it](http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2007/05/geller_to_dean_.html) before they voted for it: > [@](#): > > The Democratic Leadership in the Florida Senate and House of Representatives attempted to adhere to the rules of the DNC by offering amendments to keep the presidential preference primary on February 5, 2008. A copy of the amendment offered by [Florida Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller] and the Senate Democratic Leader Pro Tempore is included with this letter. An identical amendment was filed by the House Democratic Leader and the House Democratic Leader Pro Tempore. But as we are still the minority party in a Republican controlled Legislature, our amendments were overwhelmingly defeated. Simply put—we were outvoted, a scenario which - I’d like to caution - will be difficult to change should you move forward with any sanctions because of the primary date change. There is plenty of blame to go around. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/36 "2008-03-09T04:23:12Z")
Whoever did make the decision,it was not the voters. It is they who would be disenfranchised. I didn’t do anything wrong and I want to decide who wins. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/37 "2008-03-09T08:51:59Z")
Normally, I’d say that the DNC had set the policy in a clear manner and Florida and Michigan would have to live with the consequences - they held their primaries too early and their delegates won’t be counted. But the ongoing dead heat between Obama and Clinton is damaging both candidates. So I’d say it’s time for a “do-over” and both states should hold new primaries. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/38 "2008-03-09T09:32:25Z")
So, because it’s convenient for the DNC to violate the democratic process it itself laid out, it should do so? That’s . . rather placing convenience over morality. Reminds me of what happened to that poor woman in Florida who stopped the recounts and was blamed for being partisan- despite the fact the state constitution demanded she do as she did. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/39 "2008-03-09T09:33:31Z")
Also- those complaining that MI and FL won’t matter- if those states were casting deciding ballots, then that would determine which way the superdelegates voted, one would presume. So they should matter in terms of popularity. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350/40 "2008-03-09T09:40:51Z")
Here is my suggestion for a FREE re-vote in those states: 1. Everyone in those states is eligible to have a driver’s license, even if you don’t drive or have a car. 2. The DMV has each license on file and has a secure link. 3. Add a special link. Vote through the DMV sites from each state, ON-LINE, using your license as verification. 4. On the “election day”, simply log on (at home or at a public library or wherever, and vote. 5. It would be a great test for future primaries and the results could be quickly and easily verified and tabulated. The cost of this re-do election would be minimal…and even the little grey haired ladies in Florida could go to a public library and have someone log in for them and let them vote on-line. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-and-michigan-delegates/440350.md?page=3)