# The Florida insiders get face-planted **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 29, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472 "2018-08-29T14:33:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/41 "2018-08-29T20:29:38Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You might find [this](https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-economies/21697/)a little more informative. adaher’s not talking about FL’s economy, he’s talking about the fiscal health of the state government. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/42 "2018-08-29T20:31:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The economy cannot be controlled. That’s what failed parties say when it goes against them. > [@](#): > > Voters here aren’t interested in the slightest in implementing the blue model of unaffordable pension obligations here. That’s a pretty broad statement. If only there were data to support it. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/43 "2018-08-29T20:31:27Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Of course you don’t see the irony, or you would not be asking that question. > > Can you explain to me how a device as useful, complicated, and **affordable** (key word) comes into existence in an environment in which the means of production are controlled by the state? > > I believe that true-blue Marxist socialism is just about dead. It has been implemented, has never worked, never can work, and is completely obsolete in the digital age. What people call “socialism” nowadays is really just capitalist welfarism, or redistributive capitalism. The state is becoming more obsolete every day. Uh. Nokia is made in Finland. Pretty socialist. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/44 "2018-08-29T20:32:16Z")
BTW, it should be noted that while Gillum was Bernie endorsed, Gillum himself was a Clinton supporter in the primaries and has long been associated with the mainstream of the Democratic Party. He’s being sly here, taking maximalist progressive stances on national issues he will have no control over, while his actual proposals for Florida are fairly indistinguishable from past Democratic candidates for governor. $1 billion in new spending doesn’t buy much in Florida, and is about the steepest price tag a Democrat in Florida can propose and still be electable. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/45 "2018-08-29T20:32:18Z")
Airbus has been eating Boeing alive lately. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/46 "2018-08-29T20:34:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That’s what failed parties say when it goes against them. 21st is quite respectable, actually. And the party that has controlled Florida for 20 years and is less than 50% likely to lose in 2018, is not a failed party. > [@](#): > > That’s a pretty broad statement. If only there were data to support it. Pension costs are a problem in almost all big blue states. Smaller blue states with low poverty and little diversity have done better of course. As have smaller red states with low poverty and little diversity. If you want to really compare the blue and red models, compare like to like: Florida vs. California. Texas vs. Illinois. Missouri vs. Massachusetts. New Hampshire vs. Vermont. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/47 "2018-08-29T20:36:46Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Uh. Nokia is made in Finland. Pretty socialist. Finland is a social democracy and Nokia is a private multinational corporation. Are socialists now pro-giant private multinational corporation? That’s some pretty diluted socialism you got there if so. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/48 "2018-08-29T20:37:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 21st is quite respectable, actually. Well behind a number of major socialist economies, as you may have noticed. > [@](#): > > And the party that has controlled Florida for 20 years and is less than 50% likely to lose in 2018, is not a failed party. That was in response to your remarkable claim that the economy cannot be controlled. The failure under discussion is failure to grow the economy. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/49 "2018-08-29T20:38:52Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Uh. Nokia is made in Finland. Pretty socialist. Finland is not socialist in the least, certainly not in the Marxist sense. It’s certainly not any more socialist than the USA. As I said in an earlier post, “What people call “socialism” nowadays is really just capitalist welfarism, or redistributive capitalism”. Having a generous welfare state DOES NOT equal socialism. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/50 "2018-08-29T20:40:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 21st is quite respectable, actually. And the party that has controlled Florida for 20 years and is less than 50% likely to lose in 2018, is not a failed party. > > Pension costs are a problem in almost all big blue states. Smaller blue states with low poverty and little diversity have done better of course. As have smaller red states with low poverty and little diversity. If you want to really compare the blue and red models, compare like to like: Florida vs. California. Texas vs. Illinois. Missouri vs. Massachusetts. New Hampshire vs. Vermont. Washington is pretty blue. I haven’t heard of any pension crises here. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/51 "2018-08-29T20:46:01Z")
Why is it so hard to believe that Florida’s state government is fiscally healthy? Florida has everything going for it. A massive chunk of the state’s tax revenue comes from people who don’t even live in state through sales tax and tourism-related taxes, and since Florida was a poor Southern state until quite recently (the past 50 years), the state government has always had a culture of frugality. Also, why is it so hard to make the distinction between the health of a state government’s budget and the health of a state’s economy as a whole? The two are not necessarily related. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/52 "2018-08-29T20:47:15Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Having a generous welfare state DOES NOT equal socialism. In general world usage, yes, that’s right. But in current American Republican usage, “socialism” is almost anything the government does, and Venezuela is the cautionary example. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/53 "2018-08-29T20:48:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In general world usage, yes, that’s right. But in current American Republican usage, “socialism” is almost anything the government does, and Venezuela is the cautionary example. OK, well I’m not a Republican, and as far as I can tell, neither are you, so why are we calling things “socialism” that are not? BTW, Venezuela actually is quite socialist. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/54 "2018-08-29T20:49:30Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > A massive chunk of the state’s tax revenue comes from people who don’t even live in state through sales tax and tourism-related taxes, and since Florida was a poor Southern state until quite recently (the past 50 years), the state government has always had a culture of frugality. And despite all that passive rent-seeking, it still won’t pay for decent schools. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > OK, well I’m not a Republican, and as far as I can tell, neither are you, so why are we calling things “socialism” that are not? Neither of \*us \*is. But many around us are. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/55 "2018-08-29T20:50:46Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Of course you don’t see the irony, or you would not be asking that question. > > Can you explain to me how a device as useful, complicated, and **affordable** (key word) comes into existence in an environment in which the means of production are controlled by the state? > > I believe that true-blue Marxist socialism is just about dead. It has been implemented, has never worked, never can work, and is completely obsolete in the digital age. What people call “socialism” nowadays is really just capitalist welfarism, or redistributive capitalism. The state is becoming more obsolete every day. Okay, so, you don’t really understand what socialism is. That’s cool. You still haven’t explained what’s ironic about it, though. Even if your definition was correct, you say that what people call socialism is just another form of capitalism. So… how is it ironic that your peers support “capitalist welfarism” and own iPhones? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/56 "2018-08-29T20:51:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Are socialists now pro-giant private multinational corporation? It’s Socialism With Finnish Characteristics. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/57 "2018-08-29T20:55:51Z")
Heh. Actually, it’s just welfare state capitalism. The Third Way. Have a capitalist economy, but spread the wealth as much as possible. Utilize the free market to serve progressive ends. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/58 "2018-08-29T20:58:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And despite all that passive rent-seeking, it still won’t pay for decent schools. I grew up in Florida public schools. Hooray ejucashun! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/59 "2018-08-29T21:00:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Heh. Actually, it’s just welfare state capitalism. The Third Way. Have a capitalist economy, but spread the wealth as much as possible. Utilize the free market to serve progressive ends. Exactly, and, despite the screeching idiocy from various extremists, this is what’s won. This is what works. The fact it means you don’t get to kill the [del]Jews[/del] Liberals in Glorious Revolution is a _feature_, not a bug. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472/60 "2018-08-29T21:05:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So… how is it ironic that your peers support “capitalist welfarism” and own iPhones? That’s not ironic. The ironic part is that they call themselves socialists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-florida-insiders-get-face-planted/820472.md?page=4)