# The 'Fly Swat' strategy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343 "2004-08-31T01:47:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/1 "2004-08-31T01:47:20Z")
The fly swat strategy is this; With the U.S invading Afghanistan and Iraq, this creates an attraction to all the Jihadists and Islamist wannabes who want to fight against the States in direct confrontation with U.S military, rather than them attacking our countries and civilians. Their ability to attack Western targets and countries is visibly reduced. Is this b.s or is there a ring of truth to it? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/2 "2004-08-31T02:05:15Z")
It’s B.S. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/3 "2004-08-31T02:15:56Z")
The old lightining rod theory again… I bet the iraqi people support 100% being used as a medium for terror “swating”. Do you know how Bush is all safe and cozy in the White House and keeps saying tough stuff like “Bring 'em on!” ? Well did you think this was exclusive of americans ?! No way. The terrorists just train the teens and new recruits to blow themselves up. The master minds never strap on TNT… Losing a US soldier a day seems like a pretty stupid way of “stopping” terrorism from hitting the western targets. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/4 "2004-08-31T02:29:12Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Losing a US soldier a day seems like a pretty stupid way of “stopping” terrorism from hitting the western targets. Actually [the KIA rate](http://icasualties.org/oif/) has been closer to two a day since March. In just a couple of weeks, Mr. Bush’s war will claim it’s 1000th American life. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/5 "2004-08-31T02:49:18Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > The old lightining rod theory again… I bet the iraqi people support 100% being used as a medium for terror “swating”. Nitpick: I’m sick and tired of seeing the phrase “lightning rod” used as a metaphor for something that draws trouble to itself. Lightning rods do not attract lightning, they **repel** lightning by dispelling the electric charge from the ground. If you wanted to attract lightning you would want a pole with a metal globe on top (like the one on a van der Graaf generator), not one with a point on top like the traditional lightning rod. Basic high-school physics. As for the OP: For all those terrorists supposedly being drawn to Iraq and Afghanistan, somehow there still seem to be terrorist acts being committed elsewhere: Israel, Turkey, Spain, Indonesia, etc. Also – if the idea behind drawing the terrorists to I. and A. was that they would be easier to catch or kill if they were all in one place – that doesn’t seem to be working out too well either, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/6 "2004-08-31T03:05:13Z")
> [@](#): > > As for the OP: For all those terrorists supposedly being drawn to Iraq and Afghanistan, somehow there still seem to be terrorist acts being committed elsewhere: Israel, Turkey, Spain, Indonesia, etc. Also – if the idea behind drawing the terrorists to I. and A. was that they would be easier to catch or kill if they were all in one place – that doesn’t seem to be working out too well either, does it? Well I did say ‘visibly reduced’ ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/7 "2004-08-31T03:36:41Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The fly swat strategy is this; > > With the U.S invading Afghanistan and Iraq, this creates an attraction to all the Jihadists and Islamist wannabes who want to fight against the States in direct confrontation with U.S military, rather than them attacking our countries and civilians. Their ability to attack Western targets and countries is visibly reduced. Obviously, you don’t reduce - visibly or otherwise - terrorists’ ability to attack Western targets and countries merely by offering them the alternative of attacking Western troops and Western interests in the Middle East; you just give them a choice of fronts on which to wage their campaign. Where terrorist movements have permanent bases, training camps, supply dumps, physical infrastructure, command posts, etc, you can obviously degrade the movement’s capacity by attacking and destroying them. I’d be willing to accept, therefore, an assessment that the US intervention in Afghanistan reduced Al Qaeda’s capacity to mount attacks in the US. But I don’t think you can say the same about Iraq. AQ doesn’t appear to have had any establishment in Iraq and certainly didn’t draw any material or moral support from the then Iraqi government. Nor, I think, did any other anti-US terrorist movement. It’s hard to see how attacking Iraq could degrade the capacity of such movements in any way. As already pointed out, it gives the movements new opportunities to mount attacks on the US, since US interests are now exposed in Iraq. And of course by positioning themselves to be demonised as invaders, as occupiers, as anti-Arab, as hypocritical, as indifferent to civilian casualties, as . . . (insert criticism of choice here), the US may well have fomented support to anti-US terrorist movements, leading to more recruits, more material support, or even more toleration. So, on balance, my sense would be that, so far as the “war on terrorism” goes, the intervention in Iraq has been a step backwards for two reasons. First, it will tend to generate support for, or tolerance of, anti-US militancy, which can only be of advantage to anti-US terrorist movements. Secondly, it presents those movements with a (relatively) easy target if they wish to attack the US or US interests, without doing anything to prevent them from mounting attacks in the US itself, should they choose to persist with that tactic. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/8 "2004-08-31T04:10:27Z")
Nitpick of a nitpick > [@](#): > > Nitpick: I’m sick and tired of seeing the phrase “lightning rod” used as a metaphor for something that draws trouble to itself. Lightning rods do not attract lightning, they repel lightning by dispelling the electric charge from the ground. If you wanted to attract lightning you would want a pole with a metal globe on top (like the one on a van der Graaf generator), not one with a point on top like the traditional lightning rod. Basic high-school physics. Lightning rods don’t actually repel lightning, but attract static charges from the rod to the ground gradually so that a lightning strike isn’t produced. So I think the metaphor still works. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/9 "2004-08-31T04:28:47Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > Nitpick of a nitpick > > Lightning rods don’t actually repel lightning, but attract static charges from the rod to the ground gradually so that a lightning strike isn’t produced. So I think the metaphor still works. 😃 Agree with the nitpick of the nitpick. I understood **Rashak’s** post perfectly. As for the OP, [this visible enough for you?](http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/mar04/madrid1-train31104.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/10 "2004-08-31T04:42:00Z")
Increasing the antipathy for America has made terrorist recruiters’ jobs easier. Increasing the antipathy for America has made terrorists’ ‘pledge drives’ easier. Turning Iraq into such a chaotic place to has allowed more terrorists to train more thoroughly in the practice of violence. 1. an increase in the number of potential terrorists; 2. more opportunities for more terrorists to train in the ways of violence, 3. more incentives for terrorist financial backer to support terrorism. **As PotUSA GW Bush once said, our oceans no longer protect us.** It’s just a matter of time until the upswing in the number of better trained terrorists puts a terrorist on our shores. **The lightning rod effect is an illusion that can only exist undispelled in the short term**. In the mid-term (3-5 yrs from now) more of the effects of al Qaeda’s planned for recruiting bonus will become more and more blatant. How long till the homicidal reach the US? How long 9-11 was in the works before it came to fruition? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/11 "2004-08-31T04:43:43Z")
Did I mention that al Qaeda plans _counted_ on the US lashing out? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/12 "2004-08-31T14:56:18Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Agree with the nitpick of the nitpick. I understood **Rashak’s** post perfectly. > > As for the OP, [this visible enough for you?](http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/mar04/madrid1-train31104.jpg) Why do people get the idea I believe it? I was enquiring whether it was a good idea or a bad one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/13 "2004-08-31T15:58:06Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Did I mention that al Qaeda plans _counted_ on the US lashing out? Cite? I mean, it seems intuitively obvious that they would have expected the U.S. to do something in response to 9/11, but still – cite? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/14 "2004-08-31T16:52:35Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The fly swat strategy is this; > > With the U.S invading Afghanistan and Iraq, this creates an attraction to all the Jihadists and Islamist wannabes who want to fight against the States in direct confrontation with U.S military, rather than them attacking our countries and civilians. Their ability to attack Western targets and countries is visibly reduced. > > Is this b.s or is there a ring of truth to it? Most of the jihadi’s and Al Q and Taliban folk were already in A-stan , Iraq has basically recieved an influx of folks from Syria and Iran , and possibly some Al Q cadre to motivate the masses, along with a bunch of criminal types that Saddam freed just before the war. It has a nice sound to it , but I don’t think either country has become a roach motel for foreign jihadi’s. Declan ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/15 "2004-08-31T18:27:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cite? I mean, it seems intuitively obvious that they would have expected the U.S. to do something in response to 9/11, but still – cite? It _is_ just a guess, er… I mean it _is_ intuitive. Heres the citation for UbL expecting US retalliation. It’s retaliation from a different attack and doesn’t show that he anticipated the invasion of Iraq. But enough hedging for now [9-11 Commission Report](http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:x2P3V77Rvk4J:www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch2.htm+%22Bin+Ladin%22%22left+Kandahar+for+the+countryside,+expecting+U.S.+retaliation%22&hl=en) By August 1, members of the cells not directly involved in the attacks had mostly departed from East Africa. The remaining operatives prepared and assembled the bombs, and acquired the delivery vehicles. On August 4, they made one last casing run at the embassy in Nairobi. By the evening of August 6, all but the delivery teams and one or two persons assigned to remove the evidence trail had left East Africa. **Back in Afghanistan, Bin Ladin and the al Qaeda leadership had left Kandahar for the countryside, expecting U.S. retaliation.** Declarations taking credit for the attacks had already been faxed to the joint al Qaeda-Egyptian Islamic Jihad office in Baku, with instructions to stand by for orders to “instantly” transmit them to Al Quds al Arabi. One proclaimed “the formation of the Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Places,” and two others-one for each embassy-announced that the attack had been carried out by a “company” of a “battalion” of this “Islamic Army.” and of Atta… [9-11 Commission Report](http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:YZuQ3doiKJgJ:www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch5.htm+%22To+him,+Saddam+Hussein+was+an+American+stooge+set+up+to+give+Washington+an+excuse+to+intervene+in+the+Middle+East.+%22&hl=en) To him, **Saddam Hussein was an American stooge set up to give Washington an excuse to intervene in the Middle East**. Within his circle, Atta advocated violent jihad. He reportedly asked one individual close to the group if he was “ready to fight for [his] belief” and dismissed him as too weak for jihad when the person declined. On a visit home to Egypt in 1998, Atta met one of his college friends. According to this friend, Atta had changed a great deal, had grown a beard, and had “obviously adopted fundamentalism” by that time. It doesn’t seem unreasonable to guess that these thoughts occured to others within al Qaeda. So maybe what I said is bullshit. But here is some of the evidence I used to draw my conclusions. Make of it what you will. ---
**Author:** ![WoodCM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7bcc69/32.png) [@WoodCM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodCM)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/16 "2004-09-01T01:48:19Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The fly swat strategy is this; > > With the U.S invading Afghanistan and Iraq, this creates an attraction to all the Jihadists and Islamist wannabes who want to fight against the States in direct confrontation with U.S military, rather than them attacking our countries and civilians. Their ability to attack Western targets and countries is visibly reduced. > > Is this b.s or is there a ring of truth to it? Anyone who swats flies thinking that they might defeat their main enemy is a fool . Those that on purpose swat flies just for the hell of it are evil. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/17 "2004-09-01T03:17:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nitpick: I’m sick and tired of seeing the phrase “lightning rod” used as a metaphor for something that draws trouble to itself. Lightning rods do not attract lightning, they repel lightning by dispelling the electric charge from the ground. If you wanted to attract lightning you would want a pole with a metal globe on top (like the one on a van der Graaf generator), not one with a point on top like the traditional lightning rod. Basic high-school physics. Sorry for the hijack, but I have to correct this. I have in my lap the book _All About Lightning_ by Martin A. Uman, Department of Electrical Engineering, University of Florida, Gainesville. Dr. Uman had previously worked at Westinghouse Research Laboratories on lightning research, was formerly president of Lightning Location and Protection, Inc., is the author of this plus two other books about lightning and plasma physics, 85 journal articles, former associate editor of Journal of Geophysical Research, is a member of the International Commission on Atmospheric Electricity, the American Geophysical Union, and the IEEE, and is a fellow of the American Meteorological Society. I list all these because his credentials certainly trump whatever source you heard your information about lightning from. He knows what he is talking about. Chapter 2 of this book is called _How Does a Lightning Rod Work?_ Here are some selected snippets: > [@](#): > > It is a common misconception that lightning rods discharge clouds and thus prevent lightning. Actuall lightning rods only serve to route the lightning harmlessly to the ground. In doing so they divert the lightning when it is 10 to 100 yards away. > > … > > [Benjamin] Franklin originally thought - erroneously - that the lightning rod silently discharged the electric charge in a thundercloud and thereby prevented lightning. However, in 1755 he stated: > > “I have mentioned in several of my letters, and except once, always in the alternative, viz., that pointed rods erected on buildings, and communicating with the moist earth, would either prevent a stroke, or, if not prevented, would conduct it, so that the building should suffer no damage.” > > It is in the latter manner that lightning rods actually work. The charge flowing between a lightning rod and a thundercloud is much too small to discharge the thundercloud. The rod diverts to itself a stroke on its way to earth but can do so only in the final part of the stroke’s earthward trajectory. > > … > > There is no evidence that a pointed rod is better than one with a ball on the top. A wide variety of lightning rod shapes can be seen on urban and rural structures. So the way that “lightning rod” was used in the OP is correct - a lightning rod actually attracts lightning to itself. Granted, it can only do this with a stroke that would hit in the vicinity anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/18 "2004-09-01T03:50:04Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > So the way that “lightning rod” was used in the OP is correct - a lightning rod actually attracts lightning to itself. Granted, it can only do this with a stroke that would hit in the vicinity anyway. [A little corroboration](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/buildingbig/wonder/structure/empire_state.html) > [@](#): > > The Empire State Building is designed to serve as a lightning rod for the surrounding area. It is struck by lightning about 100 times per year. ```auto ``` ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/19 "2004-09-01T04:03:07Z")
www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/estatics/u8l4e.html > [@](#): > > The concept of a lightning rod was demonstrated in class using a Van de Graaff generator. As the Van de Graaff generator experiences a buildup of static charge, there is a strong pressure for that charge to seek a conducting pathway to the ground. If there is no person around, the charge remains upon the globe of the generator. But if a teacher places a paper clip in his/her mouth and slowly walks towards the globe of the generator, charge gradually leaks off the generator towards the paper clip through the teacher to the ground. There is never a sudden discharge or bolt from generator to teacher. From a distance away, the electric field around the paper clip and the generator is strong enough that a conducting pathway is established. Charge slowly discharges along this pathway - gradually, instead of suddenly. The paper clip serves as a sort of lightning rod, preventing a lightning bolt and releasing the pressure associated with charge buildup on the Van de Graaff generator. In the same manner, a lightning rod attached to a building gradually discharges a storm cloud, releasing the pressure associated with its charge buildup and ultimately preventing a lightning strike. Sorry for the further hijacking. :o ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343/20 "2004-09-01T13:28:18Z")
Well, x-ray, Dr. Uman did say that it is a _common_ misconception. Your cite was written by Tom Henderson: > [@](#): > > The Physics Classroom tutorial pages were written by Tom Henderson, science teacher at Glenbrook South High School in Glenview, Illinois. Tom teaches physics and (during less fortunate years) chemistry. He is a graduate the University of Illinois where he received degrees in Chemical Engineering and Chemistry. Tom has been teaching physics since 1989. Now compare his qualifications to talking about lightning to those of Dr. Uman. Actually, I had never heard of this misconception, other than while reading Dr. Uman’s book, until BrainGlutton’s post above. That’s surprising, since I’m somewhat familiar with lightning (besides having read that book, I came from Texas Tech, which had reseaarch programs on lightning, and I took higher-level EE courses on pulsed power, plasma, sparks, etc.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fly-swat-strategy/262343.md?page=2)