# The Fossil Record **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2001, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091 "2001-03-23T03:15:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/41 "2001-03-25T23:46:10Z")
I hope I don’t get kicked out for this, but it is not meant as religious. A couple of comments have been made as to why fundies insist on creationist rather than evolutionary explainations of why we are here. Some of the most rudimentary tenets of Christianity are built on the idea of “original sin”. If you don’t have Adam and Eve you don’t have “original sin”. Therefore, you don’t need a savior to die for you and to them then everything is lost. So they really are shadow boxing over evolution, because it isn’t what they really are fighting. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2001, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/42 "2001-03-26T03:43:05Z")
Good point. **Poly** , care to tackle this one? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2001, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/43 "2001-03-26T03:46:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > **I hope I don’t get kicked out for this, but it is not meant as religious.** However, I can’t let this pass. Have you gotten the impression that you can be thrown out of the SDMB for being religious or posting a possibly contraversial view? Have we developed that sort of reputation? It’s sad if we have. ---
**Author:** ![JoeyBlades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a87d85/32.png) [@JoeyBlades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeyBlades)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/44 "2001-03-30T09:20:03Z")
Ben: > [@](#): > > … it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume that the breeds at the extreme ends are separate species until they discovered the species connecting them in the middle. Precisely my point, with the minor exception that there is no ‘species’ in the middle. Stated otherwise, the fossil record is an incomplete and sometimes misleading record of the history of living things. It’s a useful tool for positing piecewise segments of the overall theory of evolution, but it has some very practical limits to it’s value. > [@](#): > > You just need to pass those genes through a number of intermediates first. Not at all. There are some obvious obstacles that make it unlikely that the two breeds would mate of their own volition, but there are no genetic barriers - no intermediaries required, except a determined human with a profound sense of humor and some knowledge of artificial insimination. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, where did you get that argument? First, it was an observation - not an argument. As for it’s origins - it just came to me - a completely original thought… I occasionally have these… ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/45 "2001-03-30T13:30:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\*Here is the basic outline for an experiment you can do at home to illustrate evolution in action. > > Get some fruit fly cultures. You may want to ask Mom or Dad to help you with this. 😃 Basically you divide up the cultures into two or three different batches and then expose each batch to different living conditions, like extreme heat, cold, toxins, etc. Fruit flies mutate very easily, so within a very short period of time each culture will have changed to adapt to the different living conditions. Each fruit fly culture will have _evolved_ into a new fruit fly species.\*\* I can create new species in my kitchen?!! Do I get to name them after myself? ---
**Author:** ![PosterChild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e274bd/32.png) [@PosterChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PosterChild)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/46 "2001-04-02T06:26:08Z")
A muslim friend of mine (physician & researcher) told me in all seriousness that humans used to be 30 feet (or yards, he couldn’t remember which) tall, several thousand years ago. He knows this because Mohammed said so, and because there is a grave of a prophet in Jordan that’s 30 feet long. Anyone know of the grave. Seems like an easy thing to check, unless no one’s allowed to check it out (which seems likely). PC ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/47 "2001-04-02T06:42:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dropzone \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > > **I hope I don’t get kicked out for this, but it is not meant as religious.** > > However, I can’t let this pass. Have you gotten the impression that you can be thrown out of the SDMB for being religious or posting a possibly contraversial view? Have we developed that sort of reputation? It’s sad if we have.\*\* * * * You won’t get kicked out, but this may get moved to the Great Debates forum. I’m hesitating because I think this has been debated to death over there already! ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/48 "2001-04-02T11:05:57Z")
Everything over there has been debated to death. That’s why it’s called Grate Debates ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/49 "2001-04-02T14:53:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RM Mentock \* > **Everything over there has been debated to death. That’s why it’s called Grate Debates** Too true! But, have you noticed any improvement? 🙂 Jois ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/50 "2001-04-02T15:28:54Z")
Improvement in this forum? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/51 "2001-04-04T02:24:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > **The one thing donkeys and horses have in common ( and actually there are a number of things 🙂 ), is that they were both probably domesticated in Mesopotamia about 6,000 years ago.** Before or after the camel? Something I’ve wondered: Do horses and asses mate in the wild? Are mules born in the wild? Or just on ranches at the bidding of the breeder? (Does this belong in GQ?) ---
**Author:** ![john\_14\_six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@john\_14\_six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/john_14_six)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/52 "2001-04-04T11:12:25Z")
> [@](#): > > There certainly seems to be evidence of speciation occuring under conditions that we can observe and demonstrate, so it seems like a pointless argument to make that speciation did not occur… on the other hand, that does little to **PROVE** the theory of evolution as a whole - \*\*or at least the part that Creationists have a problem with (i.e. abiogenesis -\> human beings) I have read a lot of posts concerning evolution, but I have not yet seen anyone attempt to answer how life came from non-life. If anyone can enlighten me with a reference that does not violate any of the laws of thermodynamics, please do so. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/53 "2001-04-04T11:42:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by john\_14\_six \* > **I have read a lot of posts concerning evolution, but I have not yet seen anyone attempt to answer how life came from non-life. If anyone can enlighten me with a reference that does not violate any of the laws of thermodynamics, please do so. Thanks.** This has been asked and answered many times before. Please have a look at [this page](http://www2.uic.edu/~vuletic/cefec.html). I was going to say just section 3.5 but I think the whole thing is worth a read. There’s a cite, now, if you have any problems with it, go ahead rebut. I betcha 1000 eDrogna from my [Temple ov thee Lemur](http://totl.net/) Vcash account you can’t. ---
**Author:** ![john\_14\_six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@john\_14\_six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/john_14_six)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/54 "2001-04-04T13:24:36Z")
Thank you, atarian. ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/55 "2001-04-04T17:08:07Z")
\*\*john\_14\_six \*\*, anyone who claims that evolution or abiogenesis violates the laws of thermodynamics is guilty of [Attributing False Attributes to Thermodynamics](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/creationism.html). I suggest you do some research, and a good place to start is with this article, [The Second Law of Thermodynamics, Evolution, and Probability](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html). ---
**Author:** ![Gr8Kat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gr8kat/32/18668_2.png) [@Gr8Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gr8Kat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/56 "2001-04-04T23:22:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I have read a lot of posts concerning evolution, but I have not yet seen anyone attempt to answer how life came from non-life. If anyone can enlighten me with a reference that does not violate any of the laws of thermodynamics, please do so. Thanks. IANAS (and I didn’t follow the links, I’m speaking off the top of my head, so I’m probably repeating something, sorry if I am) but it seems to me that viruses would be a good “missing link” between non-life and life. Are they alive? They don’t eat or respirate, I’m not even sure if they move under their own power or if you have to sneeze or bleed them around. Are they dead? They reproduce like crazy. They’re just a strand of DNA doing what every other single and multi-celled organism tries to do: spread that DNA. But are they _alive_? And are they “aware” that this is their mission? Do they have an instinctual “drive” to spread their DNA or do they just do it? In junior high biology (I believe I passed that), we learned about “protists,” _ie_, organisms that don’t appear to be plants or animals. For example, mushrooms don’t have chlorophyll so they can’t make their own food like plants, but they can’t move around like animals, plus their reproduction, unlike either plants or animals, is asexual, so they’re “protists.” Is that term still used today? Anyway, viruses and bacteria were catagorized as protists too. But with viruses, the question doesn’t seem to be so much “is it a plant or an animal?” but “is it life or non-life?” I’m in way over my head here, but I thought I’d throw in my 2¢ (and get back 1½¢ change). ---
**Author:** ![john\_14\_six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@john\_14\_six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/john_14_six)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2001, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/57 "2001-04-05T13:14:00Z")
Thanks for showing me the talk.origins links. Is there one that addresses either Fred Hoyle’s (1982?) or Lee Spetner’s (1997) works of statistical probability of evolution? Thanks again. ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/58 "2001-04-05T14:38:33Z")
**john\_14\_six** , try reading these articles: [ul] [li][The Probability of Abiogenesis](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-abiogenesis.html)[/li][li][Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculations](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob.html)[/li][li][Evolution and Chance](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/chance/chance.html)[/li][li][Chance from a Theistic Perspective](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/chance/chance-theistic.html)[/ul][/li]There’s probably more, but this is all I could remember off the top of my head. Read them thoroughly! There will be a pop quiz later. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2001, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/59 "2001-04-05T15:01:09Z")
Oh, yeah… there’s another article that directly addresses Spetner called [The Evolution of Improved Fitness](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/spetner.html). ---
**Author:** ![JoeyBlades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a87d85/32.png) [@JoeyBlades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeyBlades)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2001, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091/60 "2001-04-05T16:30:29Z")
gr8kat: > [@](#): > > They’re just a strand of DNA doing what every other single and multi-celled organism tries to do: spread that DNA. Viruses come in both DNA and RNA flavors. More probably, the first sparks of life originated from an RNA structure. > [@](#): > > But are they alive? Clearly NOT. > [@](#): > > And are they “aware” that this is their mission? Do they have an instinctual “drive” to spread their DNA or do they just do it? It’s just chemistry… is the oxygen aware of it’s role in the process of oxidation? Nope. Living cells are simply catalysts for a chemical process involving these complex molecules known as viruses. The interesting question is which came first? (chicken - egg). Did life spring forth from interactions involving viruses or are viruses simply defective fragments of DNA and RNA from living cells. Trying to keep this on topic, I don’t think the fossil record can answer this question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fossil-record/59091.md?page=4)