# The Freemasons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 25, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885 "2002-06-25T15:00:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![papertiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce73a5/32.png) [@papertiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/papertiger)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/21 "2002-06-26T10:20:08Z")
So where does the stone of shame fit in? ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/22 "2002-06-26T11:13:14Z")
Another [link](http://www.correctionhistory.org/html/chronicl/ny1816-60/oct09a.html) to the murder case. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/23 "2002-06-26T11:14:23Z")
Another [link](http://www.correctionhistory.org/html/chronicl/ny1816-60/oct09a.html) to information on the murder for Monty. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/24 "2002-06-26T11:49:32Z")
And in a sort of ‘I know you didn’t ask but someone’s bound to be wondering’ post, [The Great Seal of the United States is not a Masonic emblem, nor does it contain hidden Masonic symbols.](http://web.mit.edu/afs/athena.mit.edu/user/d/r/dryfoo/www/Masonry/Essays/eyepyr.html) ---
**Author:** ![flowers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4bbf92/32.png) [@flowers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flowers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/25 "2002-06-26T13:43:49Z")
For the masonic perspective on the Morgan affair go to [http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/Writings/morgan](http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/Writings/morgan) affair.html Also, you can check out [www.amazon.com](http://www.amazon.com) for the book: What You Need to Know About Masons. It’s written by Ed Decker (Harvest House Publishers, 1992) who is a mormon. Watching a member of one group with ridiculous rituals criticize another group with ridiculous rituals is always good for a laugh. There does not, after all, seem to be any evidence that Morgan was murdered. What all accounts do seem to agree on is that the disappearance of Morgan is what precipitated the decline of freemasonry in America. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/26 "2002-06-26T14:08:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flowers \* > \*\* > Also, you can check out [www.amazon.com](http://www.amazon.com) for the book: What You Need to Know About Masons. It’s written by Ed Decker (Harvest House Publishers, 1992) who is a mormon. Watching a member of one group with ridiculous rituals criticize another group with ridiculous rituals is always good for a laugh. > \*\* Just a nitpick, but Ed Decker isn’t a Mormon. He used to be one, but now he’s pretty notoriously anti-Mormon, as well as not being a very honest researcher. “The Godmakers”, for example, was fairly “creative” with the truth. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/27 "2002-06-26T14:22:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by papertiger \* > \*\*So where does the stone of shame fit in? \*\* You’re thinking of the Stone Cutters. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/28 "2002-06-26T14:26:45Z")
Thanks, Captain. You’re amazing. ---
**Author:** ![paulberserker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@paulberserker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulberserker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/29 "2002-06-26T14:33:23Z")
Alan Moore’s “From Hell” (the graphic novel, not the terrible johnny depp film) and “The Illuminatus! Trilogy” by Robert Anton Howard make good reading on the masons. Although both are fiction, they’re thoroughly researched and have bibliographies on that research. You should be able to pick either up from big bookshops, comic shops or amazon. Plus they’re both quality bedtime reading. Cheers, Pauly T ---
**Author:** ![flowers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4bbf92/32.png) [@flowers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flowers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/30 "2002-06-26T15:17:44Z")
Hi, Captain Amazing. I stand corrected on Ed Decker’s mormonism. Do you happen to know to which creed he is adhering this month? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/31 "2002-06-26T15:36:41Z")
BTW, flowers; I am not a fool. Do not expect me to believe obvious propaganda sites. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/32 "2002-06-26T15:47:31Z")
I’m not exactly sure…I think the Deckers are non-denominational fundementalist Christianity. I know they’re really active in trying to convert Mormons (they have an organization “Saints Alive in Jesus”) I’m also pretty sure that, even among anti-Mormon groups, Decker isn’t that well respected. He makes pretty obvious errors and misstatements about Mormonism, and a lot of the other anti-Mormon groups consider him an embarrassment to them. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/33 "2002-06-26T15:53:43Z")
For example, Robert Bowman, a fairly well known Christian apologist (in Christian apologist circles), had to say about Decker: > [@](#): > > In brief, Decker’s approach has been to portray Mormonism in the worst possible light, rather than in the most accurate light. That is, any accusation or criticism of Mormonism that appears to be useful to pull people out of the LDS church is seized upon by Decker (and not just by him, please note, but by _many_ in the evangelical counter-LDS community) and used regardless of the accuracy of the charge. . . > > By no means am I denying that the Lord has used Ed Decker and like-minded Christians to win Mormons to the Lord. But to the extent that this has happened, it has been in spite of, not because of, the weaknesses in Decker’s description and analysis of Mormonism. Who knows how many Mormons have been poisoned against the gospel by the uncharitable and inaccurate portrayals of their religion disseminated in evangelical countercult films and books? ---
**Author:** ![flowers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4bbf92/32.png) [@flowers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flowers)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/34 "2002-06-26T23:26:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*BTW, flowers; I am not a fool. Do not expect me to believe obvious propaganda sites. \*\* Dear Monty, I am new to this board & do not know what I have done to cause you to be so hostile toward me. I do not think you are a fool. I put the link in my post to do just what I said–to give you the masonic perspective. A certain amount of propaganda & subjectivity is contained in almost all web sites. I have admitted that I was wrong. Can we please call a truce? Sincerely, flowers ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/35 "2002-06-27T01:51:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by paulberserker \* > Alan Moore’s “From Hell” (the graphic novel, not the terrible johnny depp film) and “The Illuminatus! Trilogy” by Robert Anton Howard make good reading on the masons. Although both are fiction, they’re thoroughly researched and have bibliographies on that research. You should be able to pick either up from big bookshops, comic shops or amazon. Plus they’re both quality bedtime reading. I enjoyed “From Hell”. It is an account of the Jack the Ripper murders based upon "a tentative suggestion put forward by Stephen Knight in his book Jack the Ripper: The Final Solution. From Hell has copious footnotes. It is, however, fiction and I would not trust it either as a definitive account of the Ripper murders nor of the Masons. Furthermore, IMHO, it is not intended as such. The authors note, “Knight’s theory has been roundly attacked and derided in recent times, and indeed there are grounds for supposing that much of _Final Solution_ may have been intended as an ingenious hoax.” ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/36 "2002-06-27T01:53:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pravnik \* > \*\*I once read something theorizing, based on some of their rituals, practices, and origin stories, that the story about being descended from medieval cathedral mason’s guilds was actually just a front. The article posited that the freemasons were a front for the Knights Templar created after many were forced to go into hiding to escape King Philip IV and Pope Clement V. > > Unfortunately, I’m speaking from memory and I don’t have a cite. So I’m not a credible source of information; Masons, don’t come kill me. > > Anybody able to shed any light on this? \*\* This is a fairly well-known conspiracy theory, but I think the people who sincerely believe it are mostly members of the Tinfoil Hat Brigade. I don’t believe that there’s any real evidence to suggest that the Templar organization has survived in any form at all, much less as the Freemasons – although for all I know the Freemasons themselves might enjoy being linked to the famous and mysterious Knights Templar. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/37 "2002-06-27T02:31:45Z")
Flowers: Welcome to SDMB, don’t mind Monty, he is just a cranky old man. (well, maybe not old, but definately cranky) ---
**Author:** ![PlanMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@PlanMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlanMan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/38 "2002-06-27T02:52:30Z")
Regarding the Templar - Mason connection … I was in DeMolay, the Masonic-affiliated organiztion for teen boys, and our rituals spoke of Jacques DeMolay’s steadfastness in defending the Knights Templar from Pope Clement. Anyway, this doesn’t ‘prove’ anything, but might be interesting. Also, isn’t one of the Masonic organizations called the Knights Templar? Again, this in no way proves a decendent link, but does suggest at least an admiration for the old order. Never became a Mason, too much memory work, and round here, too much redneck in the Masons. ---
**Author:** ![PlanMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@PlanMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlanMan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/39 "2002-06-27T02:54:32Z")
Oh, by way of explanaton - J. DeMolay was the last Grand Master (or whatever they called the head guy) of the Knights Templar. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885/40 "2002-06-27T03:14:27Z")
then there is the anti-Catholic element of the F&A Masons - The Church responded by ex-communicating anyone who joined the Masons. (They are now on civil terms, but - what was THAT about?) 19th centuary USA had lots of waves of anti-(you name it)-ism, but the Catholics V. Masons was a re-curring theme. Tom~ - got your ears on? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-freemasons/115885.md?page=3)