# The French **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539 "2004-04-28T18:52:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/21 "2004-04-28T21:35:50Z")
A little bit of a hijack, but since we’re talking about France, the USA and the World Wars; who was it that said (something to the effect of), “Lafayette, we have arrived.” when entering France to fight against the Germans? When was it? I love that quote (even though I can’t remember it) I puts all this French-bashing in perspective. If it wasn’t for France, there wouldn’t BE a United States. Where would we get such delightful “ungrateful” commentary from the likes of **ghuff1** then? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/22 "2004-04-28T21:39:40Z")
> [@I Love Me](#): > > A little bit of a hijack, but since we’re talking about France, the USA and the World Wars; who was it that said (something to the effect of), “Lafayette, we have arrived.” when entering France to fight against the Germans? > > When was it? Pershing in 1917, on stepping onto the beaches of France. Lafayette is one of my favorite characters from history. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/23 "2004-04-28T21:48:25Z")
Right. It was your earlier post that mentioned Pershing being grateful that made me think of the quote, so maybe my memory is not quite as far gone as I thought. However, some other Americans’ memory, particularly of the role the French played in our Independence, seems to be less than perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/24 "2004-04-28T22:02:03Z")
> [@I Love Me](#): > > Right. It was your earlier post that mentioned Pershing being grateful that made me think of the quote, so maybe my memory is not quite as far gone as I thought. However, some other Americans’ memory, particularly of the role the French played in our Independence, seems to be less than perfect. Right. Well, the funny thing about France is that it went through a “little bit” of political instability between 1776 and 2004. Depending on their interests, and partly their relations with England, they would either support America, fight America, or work around America, so the relations between the two countries are like a rollercoaster. Nowadays, being both democracies where the government changes fairly reguarly, there is very little one can “owe” to the other, other than acknowledging the history of relations, much like America and England do these days. I think Russia has better relations with the Bush admin than France does - but that could change, reverse, or stay the same come next January. We need to acknowledge our places as equals at the table, not as anything else. We help them, they help us, who knows where we will be in 100 years. It is entirely possible that France could bail our asses out of something. A lot can change in even 10 years, as the post-WWII pre-Cold War era demonstrated. Part of our problem is that our current administration (with some basis) views America as the sole superpower, and (with no basis) thinks that means our opinion and action means infinitely more than anyone else’s. We’re finally the big kid on the block after a couple of centuries of being kicked around and ridiculed, and we’re flaunting it. We need to remember that we are part of a community, and we have a role to play in interacting with our “neighbors.” I mean, in 100 years, if our economy collapses, a Mexican regime rich on some oil deposits decides they want their territory back and France is a large superpower with political influence across the globe from decades of fair dealing, we’re going to feel awfully silly having spent decades flexing our muscles and telling them they owe us. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/25 "2004-04-28T22:25:32Z")
**Zagadka** – I was just poking around the old “inter-connected computing network” (or whatever you kids area calling it these days) and I found a [source](http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_16/edit16_print.html) that says that Pershing didn’t utter that famous phrase: > [@](#): > > Never mind that in the ceremonies where the famous phrase surfaced, at the Marquis de Lafayette’s tomb in Paris that July day in 1917, it was not General Pershing who pronounced it, even though he was present for the occasion and made brief remarks. Rather, it was an aide — the general’s “designated orator,” Colonel C. E. Stanton. “What we have of blood and treasure are yours,” Stanton intoned. “In the presence of the illustrious dead, we pledge our hearts and our honor in carrying the war to a successful conclusion.” And then the final line of his speech: “Lafayette, we are here!”\* > > General Pershing afterward explicitly disclaimed credit for what he termed a “splendid” phrase. But it’s the thought that counts. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/26 "2004-04-28T22:34:45Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > I think the French are people who live in a country known as “France” in western Europe, and they have a funny language where they don’t pronounce half the letters but everyone thinks it is cool because it sounds flowery. If you ever publish an encyclopedia, let me know. If the rest of the entries are as beautiful as this one on the French, I’ll be the first to buy it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/27 "2004-04-28T22:41:43Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > French attorney beat Geragos to represent Saddam? We are losing the edge. LOL! But perhaps the French attorney was simply an outsourced job by Geragos (or someone like him). ---
**Author:** ![TitoBenito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2acd7d/32.png) [@TitoBenito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TitoBenito)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/28 "2004-04-28T23:25:11Z")
> [@ghuff1](#): > > I just want to know what people think about France. Are they ungrateful? Did they really want to speak German? And what about the French attorney that wants to represent Sadaam? I have nothing against France. Saving someones ass 60 years ago should earn their gratitude for a long time, but it should not force them to go along with every action the US pursues to the end of time. If you beleived that they should, then we ought to still be rolling over for them every time for their help in keeping us from being forced to speak English, umm damn it, I mean break away from England. Yeah , what about the French attorney that wants to represent Saddam? What country should Saddam’s lawyer come from then? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/29 "2004-04-28T23:58:53Z")
Is “ghuff” short for “Gas Huffer?” :o I’m not implying anything, I’m just…you know…curious. I used to have 'tude toward France. Oddly, the more bashing I see them take the less I dislike them… Don’t get me wrong, Parisians are on the whole bastards in my experience, but then Many of the Frenchies I know don’t like them either. And their gubmint sucks, but right now so does mine. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/30 "2004-04-29T13:47:01Z")
Are we suggesting that Saddam _shouldn’t_ have legal representation? Or that it just shouldn’t be French? Should it be American then? Iraqi? I suspect there might be problems and drawbacks obtaining either. Does the OP have anyone particular in mind? I think a French lawyer would be an _excellent_ idea, as they have shown far more bloody-minded individuality on Iraq than most other nations. It would avoid any suggestion of them being a US stooge. But whatever way, give Saddam the very best legal team that money can afford. So when he’s convicted there’s no excuses about it. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/31 "2004-04-29T15:00:47Z")
I should have ignored this thread as soon as I saw his name 😃 How certain do we have to be of someone’s guilt before we abandon any legal process? Shall we elect ghuff the world arbiter of this? Perhaps he would like to put all lawyers whose clients are found guilty in prison? ---
**Author:** ![ColonelDax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@ColonelDax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColonelDax)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/32 "2004-04-29T15:12:09Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I think the Americans owe some respect to France. The United States had a British flag flying in Philadelphia. Were they going to take it down and gain independence themselves? I agree competely, but if you’ll pardon me being a history pedant, were the French not aiding the Thirteen Colonies, rather than the United States? The British surrender at Yorktown took place in 1781, while the adoption of the Constitution by a convention of the states and ratification by the first state occurred in 1787. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/33 "2004-04-29T15:47:13Z")
If it weren’t for the French Resistance helping my father I might not be here today. I owe them. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/34 "2004-04-29T17:04:14Z")
> [@ColonelDax](#): > > I agree competely, but if you’ll pardon me being a history pedant, were the French not aiding the Thirteen Colonies, rather than the United States? . IMO, the french were mostly aiding the french. There might have been volunteers, but it’s not like Louis XVI’s goal in life was to support nascent republics (as history proved latter). Taking revenge on the 7 years war, depriving the british from their colonies and more generally annoying them was most probably a way more attractive concept for him. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539/35 "2004-04-30T06:31:14Z")
I just spent the last two weeks in Paris where I was treated with kindness, courtesy, and good humor. But to generalize about their attitudes and values is as foolish as trying to pin down these qualities in Dopers in general. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-french/242539.md?page=1)