# The frequently-used "Blacks kill blacks, and it's overlooked" argument (Black Lives Matter) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713 "2016-07-12T07:57:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/21 "2016-07-12T16:49:07Z")
Right. Police are official representatives of the state. They are intended to embody the will to peace and order of the whole society. An unnecessary, unjustified killing by police is _worse_ than any ordinary murder. Because it’s more than a life wrongly ended (bad as that is)–it’s a betrayal of the terms under which a civilized people invest police with power in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/22 "2016-07-12T16:51:27Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Right. Police are official representatives of the state. They are intended to embody the will to peace and order of the whole society. An unnecessary, unjustified killing by police is _worse_ than any ordinary murder. Because it’s more than a life wrongly ended (bad as that is)–it’s a betrayal of the terms under which a civilized people invest police with power in the first place. Exactly. That’s what I was trying to get at above but, as usual my convoluted prose is confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/23 "2016-07-12T16:58:32Z")
Some people believe the community as a whole is culpable for the violence of some in it and therefore deserves little sympathy. These people are the same that think while it’s a shame refugees suffer Islamic nations have their terrorist violence coming to them. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/24 "2016-07-12T17:46:08Z")
I don’t see the point. If a cop murders a black person, that is still a crime and should be treated as such. They are protesting a culture of violence, racism, and impunity among police. If black people also murder each other, how is that even relevant to the issue? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/25 "2016-07-12T17:53:18Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > If black people also murder each other, how is that even relevant to the issue? Because if “black lives matter,” then black vs. black violence is claiming black lives. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/26 "2016-07-12T18:15:19Z")
My take is how can we call ourselves “The Land of the Free” if black people are in fear for their lives when they are pulled over for a traffic violation? We are dire need of a top down reforms in our policing methods, training and hiring. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/27 "2016-07-12T18:22:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Because if “black lives matter,” then black vs. black violence is claiming black lives. Is there anyone that claims that it isn’t? Do you think it would be a revelation to those in the inner cities that black on black crime is an issue? Do you think it must be mentioned every time that unfair treatment by police is raised? ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/28 "2016-07-12T18:27:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Is there anyone that claims that it isn’t? Do you think it would be a revelation to those in the inner cities that black on black crime is an issue? Do you think it must be mentioned every time that unfair treatment by police is raised? You know, I bet cancer and heart disease kill more black people than either of those! Why isn’t “Black Lives Matter” a cancer research group? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/29 "2016-07-12T18:40:34Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Blacks end up breaking the white man’s law because they have been put in communities where it is difficult for them to join the mainstream economies. The white man’s law? Seriously? How would that exactly differ from the black man’s law? Would theft and murder be permitted under that? This is ludicrous, and especially so when we have a black Attorney General as the highest officer of that law. It isn’t white man’s law, it’s simply law and I rather doubt you’d care to live in a country without it. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/30 "2016-07-12T19:10:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > _“In America, there are many black people who are killed by other black people. The BLM folks are silent about this, in comparison to the furor when a white cop kills a black person.”_ When a black guy is caught on camera killing or having just killed a black person, the killer is prosecuted and convicted. When a cop is caught on camera killing or having just killed a black person, he’s often not even indicted. Sure, someone’s dead in both cases, but the state has the appropriate response in only one of them. If you want to argue that we should focus on actually _preventing_ the killings in both cases by, say, investing in better social institutions, I don’t think anyone in BLM would argue with you. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/31 "2016-07-12T19:26:13Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I don’t see the point. If a cop murders a black person, that is still a crime and should be treated as such. They are protesting a culture of violence, racism, and impunity among police. If black people also murder each other, how is that even relevant to the issue? It is relevant because people are claiming that when policeman of whatever color shoots are indicative of a cultural attitude on the part of police and greater white society that says black people are worth less than white people. However, when a black person shoots another it does not say anything about how blacks feel about the worth of other black people. To refute this it obviously makes a difference to know how prevalent shooting black people is among police officers and among black people. To borrow an analogy, you have two countries Mexico and Canada and both of these countries have fishing fleets which occasionally catch whales in their nets. Pretend recently a Mexican fishing vessels caught a whale in its nets and Canadian fishermen were up in arms with demonstrations against Mexican fisherman and their obvious hatred of dolphins. Wouldn’t it be relevant information about the attitude of Mexican fisherman toward whales to know that Canadian fishermen catch 9 times as many whales as Mexican fishermen. Wouldn’t that knowledge make you think the Canadian demonstrators were more anti-Mexican than pro-whale ? In a country with alot of violent people and alot of guns, tragedies are bound to happen. People are going to get shot, some rightfully so, some by mistake, some through criminal negligence, and some through deliberate murder. Without knowing the context of who gets shot and why it is impossible to understand what those shooting tell us about society and cultural attitudes. The facts that show us black people are no more likely to get shot by police than whites, shows that for the most part the problem is not the attitudes of police or society toward black people and that the actual reason for the BLM protests are not love of black people but hatred of cops. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/32 "2016-07-12T19:39:16Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > When a black guy is caught on camera killing or having just killed a black person, the killer is prosecuted and convicted. > > When a cop is caught on camera killing or having just killed a black person, he’s often not even indicted. > > Sure, someone’s dead in both cases, but the state has the appropriate response in only one of them. If you want to argue that we should focus on actually _preventing_ the killings in both cases by, say, investing in better social institutions, I don’t think anyone in BLM would argue with you. Do you have evidence that cops who are caught on camera killing black people are indicted less then often than cops who are caught on camera killing a white person? The cop who was caught on camera killing a black person in South Carolina was indicted for murder, yet a [white person](http://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/crime/article88275007.html) was killed on camera in Fresno California and no one has been indicted yet? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/33 "2016-07-12T20:03:25Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Do you have evidence that cops who are caught on camera killing black people are indicted less then often than cops who are caught on camera killing a white person? I don’t (although it might exist). Historically, killers of black men have faced less punishment (fewer indictments, fewer convictions, shorter sentences) than killers of other demographic groups. It wouldn’t surprise me if that trend shows up when police are the killers as well. Black people are disproportionately the victims of police violence. Here’s a [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.8e418778d975) with a discussion of numerous studies. It’s a problem when the police kill a white guy and aren’t punished, but black people are bearing the brunt of the violence. It’s not unreasonable for them to point that out. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/34 "2016-07-12T20:55:14Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > When a black guy is caught on camera killing or having just killed a black person, the killer is prosecuted and convicted. > > When a cop is caught on camera killing or having just killed a black person, he’s often not even indicted. > > Sure, someone’s dead in both cases, but the state has the appropriate response in only one of them. If you want to argue that we should focus on actually _preventing_ the killings in both cases by, say, investing in better social institutions, I don’t think anyone in BLM would argue with you. It’s a good point, but it’s pretty easy to counter-argue that killing isn’t all equal. Euthenasia, for example, is legal in some places and considered an act of kindness. Executions are legal in some places, and viewed as a social necessity (among those who approve of it). It’s reasonable to argue that there’s a wide difference between a man beating his wife to death because she was talking with another man, casually, and a police officer mistaking a rapid movement by an armed suspect as a lethal threat. It’s not reasonable to expect the same legal outcome from these two events. If there’s reason to believe that the officer has unjustified, racist reasons for having shot the victim, that should weigh into the issue. And with the two recent shootings, that does seem likely to have paid a part (particularly with Philando Castile), but it’s going to vary by officer and by instance. There isn’t a blanket answer. Some police shootings are completely justified and shouldn’t be indicted. Others need to go to court and be prosecuted as murder. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/35 "2016-07-12T21:04:23Z")
We can actually look at them case by case [here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2016/) on the Washington Post. Thus far in 2016 there have been 518 fatal police shootings. That might sound like a lot, but it’s actually not that many, considering there are over a million active police in the US. At any rate, you can click on each instance if you like and get at least some details of the events that transpired as to why the police used deadly force in each situation. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/36 "2016-07-12T21:09:26Z")
One of the many things that separates police shootings from civilian shootings is that the police are, institutionally speaking, in charge of investigating themselves. As anyone whose ever followed a crime documentary knows, the police often capture only a part of the whole story. So I’m not sure how much we can learn about the real details of fatal shootings that weren’t the subject of extensive court proceedings, as in the case of Tamir Rice. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/37 "2016-07-12T22:03:23Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It also rather ignores the point that there are and have been substantial efforts to address black-on-black violence. It’s not remotely “overlooked”. Posted again for emphasis. While it’s tempting to assume that absence of media reporting means there’s nothing worth reporting, it’s wrong. [Who here heard about the march last November focused on gun violence in south Chicago](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alphas-in-the-streets-march_us_565364c2e4b0879a5b0be458)? Events like this occur pretty frequently but they don’t get the coverage that other protests do. Because the media can’t make money off of it. The focus on black-on-black crime stats would have you believing that white-on-white murders are rare phenomena. But the vast majority of homicides across the board is intra-racial. And if blacks are killing too many black people, what does that have to do with cops killing too many black people? These are two different problems involving two different sets of root causes. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/38 "2016-07-12T22:34:41Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The facts that show us black people are no more likely to get shot by police than whites, shows that for the most part the problem is not the attitudes of police or society toward black people and that the actual reason for the BLM protests are not love of black people but hatred of cops. Which facts would those be ? Because those are not Earth-1 facts, just so we’re clear. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/39 "2016-07-12T22:58:03Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If there’s reason to believe that the officer has unjustified, racist reasons for having shot the victim, that should weigh into the issue. It should. But I think it’s a mistake to focus on the racism of an individual, rather than the bias in the system. A system in which no individual is a stereotypical racist who thinks that black people are deserving of less protection can still have racist results. > [@](#): > > Some police shootings are completely justified and shouldn’t be indicted. Others need to go to court and be prosecuted as murder. It’s true that some shootings are justified. It is also true that there’s tremendous bias in the criminal justice system favor of police, a history of corruption, and a culture of covering up wrongdoing. I think people are right to protest that. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/40 "2016-07-12T23:32:25Z")
An interesting bit of information. Between 2004 and 2013, 565 police were killed feloniously, according to the F.B.I. 289 were killed by whites. 243 were killed by blacks. 33 were killed by Asians/American Indians/Alaska Natives or not reported. [Cite](https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2013/tables/table_44_leos_fk_race_and_sex_of_known_offender_2004-2013.xls). Blacks make up roughly 12% of the population yet account for 41% of the police who were killed. Whites make up roughly 62% of the population but account for 51% percent of the police who were killed. Blacks killed 289 police. If blacks killed police at a rate proportional to their population percentage, we would expect the number to be ~68. Instead the number is ~4.25 times higher than what one would expect. That, it seems to me, points to a much deeper problem than ‘it is the racist cops!’. Slee [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713.md?page=3)