# The frequently-used "Blacks kill blacks, and it's overlooked" argument (Black Lives Matter) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713 "2016-07-12T07:57:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/81 "2016-07-14T05:46:08Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > My cite does not align with your claim so please bring a cite. > > Statistics show that black American’s arrest rate for the same crime exceeds their portion of offenders and that they are more likely to be convicted and that they serve longer sentences. > > Or are we just using different definitions for “fair” > > From my previous link: > > [http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet](http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet) > > [ul] > 5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites > [li]African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense.[/li][li]African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project)[/ul][/li] > To but it another way, 500% more whites commit drug offenses yet 1000% more blacks are convicted. > > Blacks are only 12% of the population but suffer 38% of arrests for those crimes and 59% of the prison population for those crimes is black. > > Blacks serve similar terms for non-violent drug offenses as whites serve for violent crimes. > > I find your claim that the justice system is **“pretty fair”** as absurd and fanciful. The data shows that Black Americans are arrested, convicted and sentenced at an embarrassingly higher rate than whites. Justify the reality that you hand wave away that fact. > > Provide a cite or concede your claim is baseless and invalid. Which drugs? Pot is very different than crank which is very different than crack. Pot heads rarely get violent or commit crimes to get pot while users of other drugs are more likely to commit crime to get drugs or while high. The drug does matter. My understanding is that the drug law disparity mainly comes from the crack sentencing guidelines. That was changed in 2010, and rightly so. However that does not change the fact that other crimes are way high for the black population. Acording to the F.B.I, in 2013 there were 2,245 black on black murders. There were 2,509 white on white murders. One would think black on black murders are generally not racially motivated. So, the high number of murders probably has another cause. I am sure poverty is part of it however it seems unlikely, to me at least, that poverty is the sole cause. Which brings up back to the o.p. Slee ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/82 "2016-07-14T06:26:46Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > From my previous link: > > [http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet](http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet) > > [ul] > 5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites > [li]African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense.[/li][li]African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project)[/ul][/li] > To but it another way, 500% more whites commit drug offenses yet 1000% more blacks are convicted. > > Blacks are only 12% of the population but suffer 38% of arrests for those crimes and 59% of the prison population for those crimes is black. Of course 5 times “as many”(which references an absolute number) whites take drugs; because if you’re talking an absolute number, the white population overall is far bigger than the blacks. But if the stats you gave were honest, they’d account for the fact that among blacks, a higher percentage of them commit crimes than among whites and the percent of them that commit crimes. Look, people know that yea slavery and Jim Crow contributed to the lack of education and motivation in black youth, that’s true, hence why black crime is higher than white crime. But there does come a certain point where the blacks need to try harder to get past that. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/83 "2016-07-14T06:56:09Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Black on black violence is a white guy’s deflection. Yep. “Why are you complaining about X, why not complain about Y?” is a desperate attempt at a counter-argument. It’s basically saying, “I’ve got nothing, but please stop talking about X”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/84 "2016-07-14T09:03:40Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Of course 5 times “as many”(which references an absolute number) whites take drugs; because if you’re talking an absolute number, the white population overall is far bigger than the blacks. But if the stats you gave were honest, they’d account for the fact that among blacks, a higher percentage of them commit crimes than among whites and the percent of them that commit crimes. > > Look, people know that yea slavery and Jim Crow contributed to the lack of education and motivation in black youth, that’s true, hence why black crime is higher than white crime. But there does come a certain point where the blacks need to try harder to get past that. Whites and blacks do drugs at about the same rate, yet blacks go to jail for drugs twice as often, and black drug conviction sentences are longer than white drug sentences. Why do you think that is? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/85 "2016-07-14T09:04:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, I did, but your 8 anecdotes don’t go very far to show that police shoot white people less often under the same circumstances that they shoot blacks. > > There is a study linked to upthread that purports to show that police do not shoot blacks more often than whites. Hotly disputed (of course) but better than your AlterNet link. Yet still better than your “I looked at the first couple dozen incidents on the list and they all deserved it” approach. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Look, people know that yea slavery and Jim Crow contributed to the lack of education and motivation in black youth, that’s true, hence why black crime is higher than white crime. But there does come a certain point where the blacks need to try harder to get past that. Tell you what: let’s you and me race. 100 meters. But I’ll get a regular track lane, while your lane will have little hurdles 18 inches high every two meters. I mean, they’re only 18 inches high, right? You can just step over those. Of course they’ll probably slow you down a lot and take a lot more energy to finish the race and in the meantime I’ll be running way ahead of you, but you just have to try a little harder and maybe one day you’ll come out ahead too. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/86 "2016-07-14T10:36:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Look at the [database](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2016/) to which **XT** linked. I only scrolled thru twenty or so of the black shootings, but nearly all of them are not even questionable. Over and over, you see “he shot at police”, “he tried to run police down with his car”, “the police received a report of someone threatening his family with a gun”, “she refused to drop her sawed-off shotgun”, “he had a history of mental health issues and had recently been released from the hospital”, etc., etc. > > Cases where some black guy gets shot in a traffic stop where he did everything “right” are _extremely rare exceptions_. Nearly all the time, black people are disproportionately the subject of police violence because black people are disproportionately responsible for serious street crime, and resist arrest when they get busted for it. This may well be true, but it doesn’t really get at the heart of the frustration and concerns that black people have. The principle cause is the inequity that has been woven into society over the past several centuries. Yes, Eric Garner was selling cigarettes illegally, and yes he resisted arrest when he was confronted by the NYPD. But at the end of the day, people ask a legitimate question: Did some guy selling cigarettes need to be met with physical force? Did that offense necessarily have to lead to his death? And more importantly, why is Eric Garner reduced to peddling cigarettes in the first place? Why is someone dead for just trying to make enough cash to get by? The same questions apply to Alton Sterling. I understand that they died for resisting arrest and not obeying an officer’s orders – technically, that’s true. But that’s how white people see it. That’s not how black people see it. And you can’t tell them to see it differently because you have no idea what it’s like to grow up a being black in a society that has historically been institutionally racist and hostile to black people at all levels. This is not just a matter of police - African American interaction; it’s about the painful historical intersection of race and class in American society. Mind you, I’m not saying it’s easy to be an officer in these situations, either. And not every example of misconduct is an act of conscious racism or blatant abuse of power. Rather, I would argue that police training needs a serious look, and there probably needs to be national guidelines that all departments adhere to. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/87 "2016-07-14T10:41:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whites and blacks do drugs at about the same rate, yet blacks go to jail for drugs twice as often, and black drug conviction sentences are longer than white drug sentences. Why do you think that is? I don’t know but I would guess that because anyone who knows anything about the legal system will tell you that it’s not necessarily what you’re charged with, but who represents you in Court and whether you have the money to navigate the treacherous waters of the legal system. Poor whites are confronted with this reality as well, but since blacks have historically been placed at a socioeconomic disadvantage, they are affected in disproportionate numbers. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/88 "2016-07-14T11:09:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > yet blacks go to jail for drugs twice as often… do you mean for possession, or distribution? There is a reason those are treated different. The difference is similar to which is worse: suicide or killing others? I do think the crack/powder disparity ought to be eliminated, and its likely and I agree on that. I do also think it is likely that some judges do give blacks longer sentences for the same singular crime, but that doesn’t change that the rate of doing offenses such as drug dealing is higher among blacks than whites. Some of it could tho be because of the issue of prior rap sheets. From [Race and crime in the United States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States), a page edited so often enough that extremes from both sides eventually get checked by moderators, supereditors, etc. > [@](#): > > According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and “Other” 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of white victims killed by whites, and 93% of black victims killed by blacks.[38][39][40] > … > > According to the National Crime Victimization Survey in 2002, the black arrest rate for robbery was 8.55 times higher than whites, and blacks were 16 times more likely to be incarcerated for robbery than non-Hispanic whites. Robberies with white victims and black offenders were more than 12 times more common than the reverse. As I said before, there is no doubt that slavery, Jim Crow, etc. held back blacks from development in decades past, and anyone should acknowledge that. I do not think that blacks are genetically or intellectually predisposed to crime, as some racists think. The problem tho, in part does lay in the culture of a lack of a nuclear family in many black families, which even Moynihan. And a lot of it is economic in nature, because it seems easier to sell drugs and gangbang than to go to school, learn, etc. But there is another side to that coin; there is a tolerance in black-American culture for this kind of thing, and yes, what leaders like Sharpton, Jackson, etc. say matter; they set the tone for the black community at large. You hear them complain about the past more than try to guide the black community in the present, which is what Cosby tried to do (and got reviled for). The things that people can help, like the way they talk, the way they dress. Cosby was right; pull ur damn pants up. Ditch eubonics. Shun men who ditch their families. Stagmatize not finishing school. Cultures can and do change, and AA culture needs to change. Also, blacks and black political/social leaders need to better communicate that one can respect the institution of the police but call out bad officers, while not being associated with sayings like “the police is a racist institution,” or “disband or ‘demilitarize’ the police,” that kind of thing absolutely gives young kids the message that the law, even as a theory, isn’t to be respected. Fact is more people are safe because of the police than not safe because of the police. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/89 "2016-07-14T11:54:32Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > do you mean for possession, or distribution? There is a reason those are treated different. The difference is similar to which is worse: suicide or killing others? > > I do think the crack/powder disparity ought to be eliminated, and its likely and I agree on that. I do also think it is likely that some judges do give blacks longer sentences for the same singular crime, but that doesn’t change that the rate of doing offenses such as drug dealing is higher among blacks than whites. Some of it could tho be because of the issue of prior rap sheets. Blacks and whites do drugs at about the same rate, but black people are imprisoned for possession of drugs (just possession!) far more often than whites, and black people get longer sentences, on average, for the same crimes. > [@](#): > > As I said before, there is no doubt that slavery, Jim Crow, etc. held back blacks from development in decades past, and anyone should acknowledge that. I do not think that blacks are genetically or intellectually predisposed to crime, as some racists think. The problem tho, in part does lay in the culture of a lack of a nuclear family in many black families, which even Moynihan. And a lot of it is economic in nature, because it seems easier to sell drugs and gangbang than to go to school, learn, etc. > > But there is another side to that coin; there is a tolerance in black-American culture for this kind of thing, and yes, what leaders like Sharpton, Jackson, etc. say matter; they set the tone for the black community at large. You hear them complain about the past more than try to guide the black community in the present, which is what Cosby tried to do (and got reviled for). The things that people can help, like the way they talk, the way they dress. Cosby was right; pull ur damn pants up. Ditch eubonics. Shun men who ditch their families. Stagmatize not finishing school. Cultures can and do change, and AA culture needs to change. > > Also, blacks and black political/social leaders need to better communicate that one can respect the institution of the police but call out bad officers, while not being associated with sayings like “the police is a racist institution,” or “disband or ‘demilitarize’ the police,” that kind of thing absolutely gives young kids the message that the law, even as a theory, isn’t to be respected. Fact is more people are safe because of the police than not safe because of the police. Jackson, Sharpton, Obama, and other black leaders do critique and criticize and challenge gang culture, absentee fatherhood, lack of focus on education, and many other negative things that disproportionately are present in the black community. They do it all the time. But they do it, generally, to _black audiences_. And their critics seem determined to totally ignore all the times they do this so they can pretend that Obama and others don’t actually address negative factors in black communities. They always have and they still are. Obama and other black leaders also praise police officers all the time, and don’t call for disbanding the police. By the way, do you really think disbanding and demilitarizing the police are the same thing? They’re incredibly different, and advocating for demilitarizing the police isn’t anti-cop in any way whatsoever. Many police chiefs call for demilitarizing the police. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/90 "2016-07-14T15:16:43Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Yes, Eric Garner was selling cigarettes illegally, and yes he resisted arrest when he was confronted by the NYPD. But at the end of the day, people ask a legitimate question: Did some guy selling cigarettes need to be met with physical force? If he resists arrest, yes. > [@](#): > > Did that offense necessarily have to lead to his death? No. He could have complied with the officers, and then he would have lived. > [@](#): > > And more importantly, why is Eric Garner reduced to peddling cigarettes in the first place? I couldn’t say. The fact that he couldn’t get a better job does not justify or excuse his resisting arrest. If the suggestion is that Garner was forced to resist arrest because he was black and US society is bigoted against him, that is rather insulting to the majority of black US citizens, who are not criminals, work at better jobs than selling loosies, and do not resist arrest. > [@](#): > > Why is someone dead for just trying to make enough cash to get by? He isn’t dead for just trying to make cash. He is dead because he resisted arrest, was morbidly obese and suffered from all kinds of health conditions that caused him to die from resisting arrest. > [@](#): > > The same questions apply to Alton Sterling. Alton Sterling also didn’t die because he was trying to make money. He died because he threatened someone with an illegal gun, and then resisted arrest when the police tried to arrest him. > [@](#): > > I understand that they died for resisting arrest and not obeying an officer’s orders – technically, that’s true. But that’s how white people see it. That’s not how black people see it. If they do, they’re wrong. > [@](#): > > And you can’t tell them to see it differently because you have no idea what it’s like to grow up a being black in a society that has historically been institutionally racist and hostile to black people at all levels. I can tell them anything I want, and I do. Growing up black in the US does not constitute sufficient excuse for a convicted sex offender to threaten people with illegal guns, nor to resist the efforts of police to arrest him. Being black is not a good enough excuse to break the law or threaten people. That’s the bottom line, whether BLM wants to hear it or not. Cases of genuine racism - sure, I will listen to that. Cases of genuine police mistakes - sure. They are quite rare, and it is usually quite a stretch to assign racist motives to mistakes, but if BLM wants to make a plausible case, fine. Just saying ‘we need to protest and riot and scream and petition against the police and change policy so no mistakes are ever made again ever and that poor career criminal was just hustling CDs when he threatened someone with a gun so he shouldn’t be shot even if he resists’ - not so much. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/91 "2016-07-14T15:27:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whites and blacks do drugs at about the same rate, yet blacks go to jail for drugs twice as often, and black drug conviction sentences are longer than white drug sentences. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that is? Can you conceive of a non racially motivated rationale? Perhaps the drug use and possession is in a different circumstance that would result in different levels of police contact. I think the BLM movement would be much more persuasive if they didn’t use terrible examples to try and further their cause. Holding out people like Eric Garner make me more inclined to disagree with the movement. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/92 "2016-07-14T16:00:30Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Why do you think that is? Can you conceive of a non racially motivated rationale? Perhaps the drug use and possession is in a different circumstance that would result in different levels of police contact. There are plenty of non-racially motivated rationales – I seriously doubt that the best explanation (or even a particularly significant explanation) of all these many disparities is “police officers don’t like black people and want to harm them”. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem. > [@](#): > > I think the BLM movement would be much more persuasive if they didn’t use terrible examples to try and further their cause. Holding out people like Eric Garner make me more inclined to disagree with the movement. There are some bad examples, but I think Garner is probably a pretty decent one. There were plenty of strategies officers could have used to de-escalate their encounter with Garner, but instead, they continued the escalation, which wasn’t necessary to protect themselves or the people in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/93 "2016-07-14T16:22:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are plenty of non-racially motivated rationales – I seriously doubt that the best explanation (or even a particularly significant explanation) of all these many disparities is “police officers don’t like black people and want to harm them”. > > But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem. Nebulous factoids without causal connections which invite the reader to draw conclusions based on race doesn’t mean there is a problem. The key question I always have is are disparate treatment the result of disparate actions. For example, is the disparate arrest rate a result of higher incidents of arrestable behavior? If the rate of arrestable behavior is higher, then damn straight I want there to be a disparate rate of arrest. > [@](#): > > There are some bad examples, but I think Garner is probably a pretty decent one. There were plenty of strategies officers could have used to de-escalate their encounter with Garner, but instead, they continued the escalation, which wasn’t necessary to protect themselves or the people in the area. And if he had wheels he’d be a wagon. You may think he’s a good example because it shows levels of force, etc., but the fact that he resisted lawful arrest and that alone moots any persuasive value. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/94 "2016-07-14T16:30:30Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Nebulous factoids without causal connections which invite the reader to draw conclusions based on race doesn’t mean there is a problem. The key question I always have is are disparate treatment the result of disparate actions. For example, is the disparate arrest rate a result of higher incidents of arrestable behavior? If the rate of arrestable behavior is higher, then damn straight I want there to be a disparate rate of arrest. Do you believe this explains the longer sentence that black people receive than white people, on average, for the same crimes? Does this explain why crack possession is treated much, much more harshly than cocaine? Further, do you have evidence that this explains all of the disparities in arrests? > [@](#): > > And if he had wheels he’d be a wagon. You may think he’s a good example because it shows levels of force, etc., but the fact that he resisted lawful arrest and that alone moots any persuasive value. YMMV. My mileage does indeed vary. For the vast majority of American history the police were to black Americans as Nazi brownshirts were to Jews in 1930s Germany. Only very recently has this started to not be widely true. I don’t condone, and actively condemn, resisting arrest or violence against police, but I understand why some might react, like Garner did, in incredible fear for his life. In this case, Garner was unarmed and posed no significant danger to anyone, and struggled for breath and for his life, and then died. The reasons why so many black people live in absolute bone-shaking, mortal terror of the police are not the fault of black people. And this bone-shaking, mortal terror puts both black people and police officers at risk. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/95 "2016-07-14T17:10:11Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You are begging the question. > > [http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet](http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet) > [ul] > About 14 million Whites and 2.6 million African Americans report using an illicit drug > 5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites > [li]African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense.[/li][li]African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project)[/li][/ul] > > Black Americans are very justified in not trusting the legal system as it is biased against them. The oppression that they are suffering do to an inequitable application of justice is the driving factor. > > It is absurd for you to place blame on those being oppressed. Without an uprising they are not the ones with the power to change the system. > > Your argument is purely victim blaming. I am not begging the question, I provided evidence for my claim. It is true that black self report drug use at the same rate as whites. This does not mean that they commit other crimes at the same rate. Most crime is intraracial and so black victims report black criminals. Arrest and incarceration rates for crimes closely match victim reports, so unless there is a huge conspiracy by black victims to mislead people about the race of the criminal who victimize them we can assume that this mean that criminality rates match arrest and incarceration rates. Drug offenders only make up 20% of people incarcerated while violent criminals make up the majority of people in prison. So even if the drug offenses were prosecuted differently according to race it would not account for the discrepancies in arrest and incarceration rates. However, it is a well studied phenomenon that although black people admit to strangers over the phone drug use rates similar to white people actual drug testing of different populations shows a different [picture](https://ccjs.umd.edu/sites/ccjs.umd.edu/files/pubs/Rosay%20et%20al%202007.pdf). When compared to actual drug tests, black people are more likely to under report drug use than white people are. Black people are also more likely to be drug dealers and thus involved in associated criminality. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/96 "2016-07-14T17:34:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you believe this explains the longer sentence that black people receive than white people, on average, for the same crimes? Does this explain why crack possession is treated much, much more harshly than cocaine? > > Further, do you have evidence that this explains all of the disparities in arrests? I don’t know the answer to any of these. I think all of the claims have potentially non racially motivated explanations but each claim would have to be examined in more detail. > [@](#): > > The reasons why so many black people live in absolute bone-shaking, mortal terror of the police are not the fault of black people. And this bone-shaking, mortal terror puts both black people and police officers at risk. This is too simplistic. If indeed the rate of arrestable offenses is greater, then the reason some quantity of black people react the way you describe is partly the fault of those people engaging in arrestable activity. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/97 "2016-07-14T17:47:38Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I don’t know the answer to any of these. I think all of the claims have potentially non racially motivated explanations but each claim would have to be examined in more detail. In addition to personal factors, systemic and training and societal factors could be involved. Based on conversations with former police officers, I think it’s very possible that many/most cops (regardless of their race) are just a little bit more nervous around young black men, and a little bit more likely to use intimidation tactics rather than diplomatic tactics, and just a little more likely to interpret various movements/actions as unsafe or dangerous, and just a little more likely to draw their weapon, and just a little more likely to fire, when interacting with a young black man. > [@](#): > > This is too simplistic. If indeed the rate of arrestable offenses is greater, then the reason some quantity of black people react the way you describe is partly the fault of those people engaging in arrestable activity. Sure – I don’t mean to exculpate every single black person who doesn’t obey police instructions. But I think that this is the best explanation for disparities in the way black people behave around police officers. I know that I have no fear of police, and it’s very easy for me to just not move quickly and obey every command. If I was in mortal, bone-shaking terror, then this would probably be a lot harder. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/98 "2016-07-14T18:03:50Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I am not begging the question, I provided evidence for my claim. > It is true that black self report drug use at the same rate as whites. This does not mean that they commit other crimes at the same rate. Most crime is intraracial and so black victims report black criminals. Arrest and incarceration rates for crimes closely match victim reports, so unless there is a huge conspiracy by black victims to mislead people about the race of the criminal who victimize them we can assume that this mean that criminality rates match arrest and incarceration rates. > Drug offenders only make up 20% of people incarcerated while violent criminals make up the majority of people in prison. So even if the drug offenses were prosecuted differently according to race it would not account for the discrepancies in arrest and incarceration rates. However, it is a well studied phenomenon that although black people admit to strangers over the phone drug use rates similar to white people actual drug testing of different populations shows a different [picture](https://ccjs.umd.edu/sites/ccjs.umd.edu/files/pubs/Rosay%20et%20al%202007.pdf). When compared to actual drug tests, black people are more likely to under report drug use than white people are. > Black people are also more likely to be drug dealers and thus involved in associated criminality. Dude, you do realize that the link you provided is studying self reporting of drug use while in the justice system? The point is that whites are less likely to be in the justice system. Note that they only used pot and cocaine too. > **[Fair Sentencing Act](https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/fair-sentencing-act?redirect=feature%2Ffair-sentencing-act)** > > In 2010, Congress passed the Fair Sentencing Act (FSA), which reduced the sentencing disparity between offenses for crack and powder cocaine from 100:1 to 18:1. You are still begging the question [ > [@](#): > > Bill: “God must exist.” > Jill: “How do you know.” > Bill: “Because the Bible says so.” > Jill: “Why should I believe the Bible?” > Bill: “Because the Bible was written by God.” ]([http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html)) All of your cites are not using random populations but those in the court system, as you are more likely to be in the system if you have black skin you are self selecting. Your “victimization rates” requires a cite but I am betting it will also have the same fault, they do not apply to the general population. What you are doing is the equivalent of making a claim about the rate of cancer and only including cancer patients in your study. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/99 "2016-07-14T18:11:15Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Yeah, but the question isn’t race there, as I see it. As far as anyone knows, did McVeigh or Roof resist arrest? So those Bundy guys obeyed lawful orders? ISTM they were telling the cops to fuck off. And the cops decided to wait them out. If the black panthers did that, we would send in a robot with a bomb. > [@](#): > > That said, the cops need to de-escalate in most cases, rather than go nuclear. Its more than that. Black men are several times more likely to be shot by a cop than a white man. Even if this could be explained by more contact between cops and black men, black shooting victims are significantly more likely to be unarmed than white shooting victims. Cops just seem more nervous around, and more likely to shoot, a black suspect than a white suspect. The frequency of cops killing anyone is pretty low but the relative frequency of cops being punished for shooting someone is also very low. Edited to remove claim I can’t verify. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/100 "2016-07-14T18:40:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you believe this explains the longer sentence that black people receive than white people, on average, for the same crimes? Does this explain why crack possession is treated much, much more harshly than cocaine? > > Further, do you have evidence that this explains all of the disparities in arrests? > > My mileage does indeed vary. For the vast majority of American history the police were to black Americans as Nazi brownshirts were to Jews in 1930s Germany. Only very recently has this started to not be widely true. > > I don’t condone, and actively condemn, resisting arrest or violence against police, but I understand why some might react, like Garner did, in incredible fear for his life. In this case, Garner was unarmed and posed no significant danger to anyone, and struggled for breath and for his life, and then died. > > The reasons why so many black people live in absolute bone-shaking, mortal terror of the police are not the fault of black people. And this bone-shaking, mortal terror puts both black people and police officers at risk. Crack is treated worse that pure coke because of the reported impact it was having on the inner city, and the punishment was the typical knee-jerk response by Congress and state legislatures. Since then there have been movements to normalize drug sentencing, but getting Americans to go “soft on crime” is tough in our media fueled world, and crack is still some nasty shit that has a horrible impact on people and communities. Coked-up businessmen are not seen as the same threat as inner-city crack dealers when we have 1 minute and 30 seconds for a tv spot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713.md?page=6)