# The frequently-used "Blacks kill blacks, and it's overlooked" argument (Black Lives Matter) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713 "2016-07-12T07:57:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/141 "2016-07-18T14:28:43Z")
While we’re “just posting” things, I’ll add [this story from last year](http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/north-miami-beach-police-caught-using-photos-of-local-black-men-for-target-practice-6520537#!)to the pile. You don’t have to be a behavioral psychologist to understand how treating black men as something to be shot at might add a degree of bias in real-life situations. > [@bump](#): > > Not a ONE of the people who were shot would have even made the national news, if not for BLM or people like them. We know. That’s part of the problem. > [@](#): > > If BLM is going to get up and make a major spectacle of themselves about the issue, the burden of proof and convincing naturally falls on them to coherently explain why the situation is intolerable. And they do that fairly well, but then turn right around and undercut that explanation by automatically and blindly doing the same counterproductive actions I mentioned upthread- vilifying the cops, automatically backing the black guy, hand-waving away violent or stupid behavior on the part of the people who get shot, and focusing on outcomes instead of the chain of events that got them there, complete with dumb-ass absurdities like “\ was murdered for \”, which is not only untrue in several ways, it’s counter productive, in that most everyone else sees a guy breaking the law and then resisting arrest, and then something unfortunate coming out of that. So you admit that BLM have a valid complaint about the situation being “intolerable”. Good to know. It’s true that the BLM do sometimes get irrationally angry after yet another shooting of a young black man, which I understand you see as uncivilized and counterproductive. Perhaps if you explained it them…? > [@](#): > > The burden of explanation lies on BLM to explain why that isn’t the case; in the case of Alton Sterling, the guy wasn’t even cold, and there were cries of murder, etc… when it’s looking more and more like he actually did resist arrest and did go for his gun. Same thing for Michael Brown. If that’s the case, BLM ought to offer up a mea culpa of a sort, and admit that in this case, it was justified. Anything else weakens their case in a lot of people’s eyes. And yet, they’re still holding up Brown’s shooting as some sort of police murder, and making claims about Sterling, before the investigation is even started. > > Now if all of the situations were as baffling and outrageous as Philando Castile’s shooting, then this would be a much different issue, and there wouldn’t be much debate. But those sort of things are rare- most of them are either more cut and dried in the opposite way, or they’re very murky. Post-hoc rationalization is always easy to do. I posted above a link to some examples (and admittedly examples are anecdotal, but you’re working from examples as well) of white suspects involved in the sort of behavior that is getting black suspects summarily shot and still walking away - sometimes without charge. And of course even with clearcut cases such as Castile’s or Tamir Rice’s there’s still plenty of effort to justify what happened as being the victim’s fault. Let me just reiterate the point about Rice: a twelve-year-old boy with a toy gun in his waistband was shot _within two seconds_ of the police pulling up. It doesn’t get much more “baffling and outrageous” than that, and yet there’s still plenty of “debate”. And I note that the officer involved in the shooting will not face trial. How do we proceed from this? If the shootings of Rice and Castile aren’t worthy of public protest, what is? Your fundamental argument that victims of such behavior must be perfect innocents in all regard or else the arguments against police misbehavior fail is a longstanding tactic of dismissal of claims of injustice. Rosa Parks wasn’t the first black woman arrested for failing to give up a seat on a bus, but MLK knew that whichever case they used for their civil rights campaign would involve every possible effort to denigrate the victim as deserving of the treatment they’d had at the hands of police and society, and so she became the ‘poster child’ for the movement. Eric Garner was no poster child _but he didn’t deserve to die_. Alton Sterling have been going for his gun (which was still in his pocket when he died) as the police officer shouted - or [maybe not](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/police-dash-cam-video-exonerates-nj-man-implicates-cops-article-1.1701763) - it’s too bad the police body cameras were disabled and we can’t see what happened. But when even the deaths of children are seen as not good enough to effect change, the movement has to choose between working with what they have and waiting while more die. And your response is to insist that a minority group already struggling to achieve change should do the work of their critics as well? > [@](#): > > I’m not claiming the cops are doing everything on the straight and narrow- far from it. But at the same time, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. There IS a reason that cops are more apprehensive and on edge around black people, and that’s because statistically, they’re drastically more likely to shoot them than anyone else. And they arrest black men at a much higher rate than anyone else at all. Got it: it’s black men’s fault that the police treat them all as potential violent criminals, just like it’s Muslims’ fault that they’re all treated as potential terrorists and it’s online gamers’ fault that they’re all treated as violent misogynistic oh wait, sorry, I forgot - #notallmen. Okay, that’s a bit snappish, but the argument that “most of the criminals police encounter are black men and therefore it is understandable that police treat all black men as potential criminals”, even if true and argubaly valid, _remains fundamentally unjust to black men_. And subsequently drives the argument “police treat all black men as criminals even if innocent, therefore the police cannot be relied upon to be fair and just”. To place the burden solely on black men is unfair here, particularly as police are trained professionals serving the public - the WHOLE public - and thus ought to be subject to a higher level of scrutiny and behavior. > [@](#): > > I guess what I’m getting at is that a higher arrest rate and a higher murder rate seems to be the fire causing a lot of the smoke around the issue, and in large part, BLM and the black community are crying foul, when police and the rest of America are seeing a community with a huge internal behavior problem with respect to criminality and acceptance of that. > > It’s that acceptance of criminality, yet outrage about mistreatment for that criminality that baffles a lot of the rest of the country. Nobody’s “accepting criminality”. The issue is disproportionate responses to that criminality. And to suspected criminality. And the lack of justice with regard to those disproportionate responses. Which, despite their clumsy and “counterproductive” methods, is the very worthy issue BLM are trying to address. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/142 "2016-07-18T18:04:30Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No I said the result of a survey of a specific group that does not reflect society at whole do not extrapolate to the general population. > > Unless you can provide some basis on why black people would be more likely to commit murder to to some biological function the **only** explanation is that is due to inequity in socioeconomic reasons. > > If my black men are arrested, charged and convicted of crimes at a higher rate thus they are excluded from employment opportunities and even housing choices due to that record. Mix this with sub-standard education, access to legal justice and hiring biases and more will be attracted to extra-legal activities. > > The peak in 1992 is a direct result of this disenfranchisement as extra-legal activities and or having no access to the legal system to redress grievances. > > It doesn’t matter what group is put in that position, their will be a tendency to use violence. If a group has been treated unfairly by the system they will be less likely to utilize that system when they are a victim. > > Also note that 86 percent of 2013 homicides involving a white victim have been solved compared with 45 percent of murders with a black victim and 56 percent of murders involving a Hispanic victim. > > Even if those numbers are related to “no snitch” issues the mistrust of the justice system is the primary reason for “no snitch”. > > [Home | Bureau of Justice Statistics](http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p13.pdf) > > Note how the percentage of blacks in prison for murder is not far off compared to whites but that robbery is much higher. With a difference in clearance rates by race you cannot make the claims that you made about current murders. > > But the prison numbers do not tell the whole story, the racial bias in arrests, prosecution and sentencing means that a larger portion of the black population have a felony conviction. And the unequal application of drug laws has greatly contributed to this disenfranchisement. > > Two percent of all Americans, or 3.9 million, have lost the right to vote, compared with 13 percent of adult black men. > > [Archived | In Search of a Job: Criminal Records as Barriers to Employment | National Institute of Justice](http://www.nij.gov/journals/270/pages/criminal-records.aspx) > > But I give up, the evidence that systemic racial bias causes these issues is well established. I doubt that any debate will change your pre-conceived ideas so I will bid you a good day. Since there is no biological difference between police officers and non-police officers the only explanation as to why they are more prone to shooting black people is socioeconomic inequality. If we paid police more than obviously there would be no more police shootings. The reason the black people are more likely to commit crime could be biological, it could be because of a bad society or it could be because of a violent culture. You have provided no evidence of your assertions and once again are just question begging. If your black men commit more crime than other groups then they are going to be imprisoned more often. People are going to be reluctant to hire convicted criminals to work for them for obvious reasons. This would still be true if racism was completely expunged from the heart of every person in the world. It is your opinion that 1992 was the peak of societal disenfranchisement of black people? That it was worse than before the civil rights act and the civil rights movement? Even someone as skilled in the arts of self deception as yourself must have a hard time believing that 1992 was the nadir of black people in America. Being discriminated against is not unique to the black american experience. Japanese America were herded into camps, Jewish americans were discriminated against in employment and education. Asian americans are still be discriminated against in education. Almost every ethnic group in America had a period of living in a ghetto and being poor until they were able to assimilate. Beyond that the overwhelming majority of black people in America are able to go through life without becoming criminals. If 90% of black people can do it, then there is no reason to expect that the other 10% of black people can do it too. Robbery sentences vary wildly depending on the circumstances of the crime, such as value of what was stolen and previous history of criminality and jurisdiction. That is why murder is an easier comparison. Since you have not addressed the evidence that surveys of black victims of crime say that black people are more likely to commit crime, I will assume you have no answer for it and move on, secure in the knowledge of my own correctness. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/143 "2016-07-19T01:35:43Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Since there is no biological difference between police officers and non-police officers the only explanation as to why they are more prone to shooting black people is socioeconomic inequality. If we paid police more than obviously there would be no more police shootings. > The reason the black people are more likely to commit crime could be biological, it could be because of a bad society or it could be because of a violent culture. You have provided no evidence of your assertions and once again are just question begging. > If your black men commit more crime than other groups then they are going to be imprisoned more often. People are going to be reluctant to hire convicted criminals to work for them for obvious reasons. This would still be true if racism was completely expunged from the heart of every person in the world. > It is your opinion that 1992 was the peak of societal disenfranchisement of black people? That it was worse than before the civil rights act and the civil rights movement? Even someone as skilled in the arts of self deception as yourself must have a hard time believing that 1992 was the nadir of black people in America. > Being discriminated against is not unique to the black american experience. Japanese America were herded into camps, Jewish americans were discriminated against in employment and education. Asian americans are still be discriminated against in education. Almost every ethnic group in America had a period of living in a ghetto and being poor until they were able to assimilate. Beyond that the overwhelming majority of black people in America are able to go through life without becoming criminals. If 90% of black people can do it, then there is no reason to expect that the other 10% of black people can do it too. > Robbery sentences vary wildly depending on the circumstances of the crime, such as value of what was stolen and previous history of criminality and jurisdiction. That is why murder is an easier comparison. > Since you have not addressed the evidence that surveys of black victims of crime say that black people are more likely to commit crime, I will assume you have no answer for it and move on, secure in the knowledge of my own correctness. OK, it is obvious that you have no argument that can be based on reasonable logic, but your 1992 is well documented as a turning point due to several reasons. You are cherry picking. [http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/27/us/drop-in-homicide-rate-linked-to-crack-s-decline.html?pagewanted=all](http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/27/us/drop-in-homicide-rate-linked-to-crack-s-decline.html?pagewanted=all) I am unable to address directly the implications of your argument directly within GD, but a google search shows I am waisting my time. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-70627.html](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-70627.html) ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/144 "2016-07-19T02:14:50Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No I said the result of a survey of a specific group that does not reflect society at whole do not extrapolate to the general population. > > Unless you can provide some basis on why black people would be more likely to commit murder to to some biological function the **only** explanation is that is due to inequity in socioeconomic reasons. There are other possible reasons than biological. Cultural, for example. To take an example from a different culture, the suicide rate in Japan is way high compared to most developed countries. A big part of that is cultural, with seppukku being considered honorable. I imagine a debate could be had over what cultural themes could account for part of the discrepancy. However if distrust of the police is a part of the culture then one would expect interactions with the police to be more heated. This is true even if the distrust has a valid cause. It turns circular. Slee ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/145 "2016-07-19T11:11:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Because if “black lives matter,” then black vs. black violence is claiming black lives. That’s taking the bumper-sticker slogan of a movement and acting like it fully defines what the movement is about. I am pro-choice. Does that mean I support choice in every situation? No, it means I support it in the case of abortion. That’s all it means. Black Lives Matter is about systematic issues, not any one on one interaction. It’s about systematic racism, and how Black lives are not treated as if they matter as much. Go to their website, and check out [their beliefs](http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/). There isn’t a place where “black-on-black violence” would even fit. That almost certainly is not because the one black guy thinks that black people don’t matter. Black on Black violence is a problem. but it’s not the one that the BLM movement was founded to address. Any more than the pro-choice movement advocates against stealing. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/146 "2016-07-19T16:20:22Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That’s taking the bumper-sticker slogan of a movement and acting like it fully defines what the movement is about. > > I am pro-choice. Does that mean I support choice in every situation? No, it means I support it in the case of abortion. That’s all it means. That’s just because “pro-choice” is a mamby-pamby/shortened code word for “pro-abortion rights.” > [@](#): > > Black Lives Matter is about systematic issues, not any one on one interaction. It’s about systematic racism, and how Black lives are not treated as if they matter as much. It’s not about one-on-one interaction between a given black man and a given cop? All “systematic issues” boil down to one-on-one interactions, one at a time. > [@](#): > > Go to their website, and check out [their beliefs](http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/). There isn’t a place where “black-on-black violence” would even fit. I think that’s the point. > [@](#): > > Black on Black violence is a problem. but it’s not the one that the BLM movement was founded to address. And THAT is all that needs to be said. And the next question is why not? Why doesn’t someone start such a movement? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/147 "2016-07-19T16:23:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Black on Black violence is a problem. but it’s not the one that the BLM movement was founded to address. Any more than the pro-choice movement advocates against stealing. P.S. I just noticed the similarity between the “why doesn’t BLM address black on black violence” with the argument that many anti-abortion people care about unborn children, but ignore the welfare of children once they are born. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/148 "2016-07-19T16:27:57Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And THAT is all that needs to be said. > > And the next question is why not? Why doesn’t someone start such a movement? There are many such movements and organizations led by African Americans. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/149 "2016-07-19T16:35:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are many such movements and organizations led by African Americans. There were already many movements and organizations led by African Americans to stop police violence too before BLM came along. Yet that’s where all the energy is. Look, I get that too. Completely. The police should be the ones involved in stopping violence against blacks, including black-on-black violence, instead of committing the violence. It’s a different level of outrageous when cops do it than when an average person does it. It’s a whole different level of wrong, and it’s the first problem that needs solving. And that’s what I wish people would say when people bring up black-on-black violence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/150 "2016-07-19T16:38:22Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > There were already many movements and organizations led by African Americans to stop police violence too before BLM came along. Yet that’s where all the energy is. > > Look, I get that too. Completely. The police should be the ones involved in stopping violence against blacks, including black-on-black violence, instead of committing the violence. It’s a different level of outrageous when cops do it than when an average person does it. It’s a whole different level of wrong, and it’s the first problem that needs solving. And that’s what I wish people would say when people bring up black-on-black violence. That’s fine, but I think the myth that black people don’t protest violence and crime in black communities also needs to be challenged when someone asks “why don’t they focus on black-on-black crime?”. Your answer is fine, but I think it should be paired with “they do – many organizations have been challenging crime and violence for decades, but not every organization needs to focus on every bad thing”. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/151 "2016-07-22T10:28:33Z")
[here’s an interesting take:](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-are-so-many-black-americans-killed-by-police/) from FiveThirtyEight > [@](#): > > Black Americans are more than twice as likely as white Americans to be killed by police officers.1 Researchers agree that racism almost certainly plays a role in that disparity. But “racism” is too broad an explanation to reveal much about the more immediate causes or to point to a way to reduce police killings of black people like the recent ones in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and a suburb of St. Paul, Minnesota. > > Researchers who have studied the issue say that racism manifests itself in different ways, requiring a range of solutions. If the disparity arises because bias among police officers makes them more likely to fire guns at black people than at white people who pose equal threats, for example, then the answer could lie in hiring, training and firing: test recruits for bias, train officers to not exercise bias and fire officers who demonstrate bias. > > But if the disparity is due more to systemic police practices than the prejudices of individual officers, then the answer could be to change those practices — for instance, ensure that departments don’t concentrate car checks that are unlikely to turn up anything illegal and could turn violent in predominantly black neighborhoods. > > And if the disparity is because there are relatively more police interactions with black people, **because black people commit a disproportionately large share of reported crimes,** then the answer could be to address the systemic causes of the crime disparity, including urban poverty. (No one said the solutions would be easy.) > … That boldfaced line is something that cannot be left out of this debate. We know the police force at times recruits low info neanderthals no doubt, but most of them are good people serving their community. Black crime needs to be addressed as well as white cop’s bias. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/152 "2016-07-22T10:37:51Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > [here’s an interesting take:](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-are-so-many-black-americans-killed-by-police/) from FiveThirtyEight > > That boldfaced line is something that cannot be left out of this debate. We know the police force at times recruits low info neanderthals no doubt, but most of them are good people serving their community. Black crime needs to be addressed as well as white cop’s bias. It’s never been left out of the debate. It’s brought up during every such discussion. No one denies it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/153 "2016-07-22T10:50:43Z")
[Quote=538] And if the disparity is because there are relatively more police interactions with black people, because **black people commit a disproportionately large share of reported crimes** , then the answer could be to address the systemic causes of the crime disparity, including urban poverty. (No one said the solutions would be easy.) [/quote] > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > That boldfaced line is something that cannot be left out of this debate. We know the police force at times recruits low info neanderthals no doubt, but most of them are good people serving their community. Black crime needs to be addressed as well as white cop’s bias. I agree that it needs to be addressed. Did you read the second half of the very sentence you bolded? Because that’s all about addressing black crime. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/154 "2016-07-22T12:04:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s never been left out of the debate. It’s brought up during every such discussion. No one denies it. what you do call the common deflection, that some posters here have engaged in, which said “more crimes are committed by whites than by blacks” using absolute numbers, which is something that leaves out that whites are a much greater portion of the population, and ignores the “disproportionately” part? An example is: > [@](#): > > [//www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet](https://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet) > About 14 million Whites and 2.6 million African Americans report using an illicit drug > 5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites > African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense. > African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project) > [@Gyrate](#): > > I agree that it needs to be addressed. Did you read the second half of the very sentence you bolded? Because that’s all about addressing black crime. Yes I did; and I do 100% agree. That being said, what kind of anti-poverty initiatives could work, and where would it start and end? One thing that needs to be ended being talked about in public discussion from black leaders: reparations for slavery. You can’t redo every past wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/155 "2016-07-22T12:13:28Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > what you do call the common deflection, that some posters here have engaged in, which said “more crimes are committed by whites than by blacks” using absolute numbers, which is something that leaves out that whites are a much greater portion of the population, and ignores the “disproportionately” part? > > An example is: That’s a terrible example for your point, since it shows that white people do the crime (drugs, in this case) at about the same rate that black people do, yet black people disproportionately are prosecuted and convicted much more often, and also serve longer sentences, for activities that white people do just as often on a per capita basis. > [@](#): > > Yes I did; and I do 100% agree. That being said, what kind of anti-poverty initiatives could work, and where would it start and end? One thing that needs to be ended being talked about in public discussion from black leaders: reparations for slavery. You can’t redo every past wrong. Can we attempt to redo the wrongs done to living black people, like Redlining, other forms of housing discrimination, improper and unfair application of law enforcement, and more? Are you against even talking about this? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/156 "2016-07-22T16:33:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s a terrible example for your point, since it shows that white people do the crime (drugs, in this case) at about the same rate that black people do, yet black people disproportionately are prosecuted and convicted much more often, and also serve longer sentences, for activities that white people do just as often on a per capita basis. you seem to not know what “disproportionately” means. The figures in the post I criticized used absolute numbers; that’s not what this is about. Its about what percentage of each population does what. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/157 "2016-07-22T16:36:07Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > you seem to not know what “disproportionately” means. The figures in the post I criticized used absolute numbers; that’s not what this is about. Its about what percentage of each population does what. I understand what you were saying, but you ignored that the same percentage of each population does drugs, roughly, yet a much higher percentage of the black population are punished for it, and with longer sentences. Does that not bother you? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/158 "2016-07-22T18:31:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I understand what you were saying, but you ignored that the same percentage of each population does drugs, roughly, yet a much higher percentage of the black population are punished for it, and with longer sentences. > > Does that not bother you? It is not true that all races do drugs at the same rate. Studies have consistently found that while whites and blacks self report similar levels of drug use, testing shows that blacks are more likely to test positive for drugs while denying drug use. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/159 "2016-07-22T18:46:05Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > what you do call the common deflection, that some posters here have engaged in, which said “more crimes are committed by whites than by blacks” using absolute numbers, which is something that leaves out that whites are a much greater portion of the population, and ignores the “disproportionately” part? > > An example is: > > Yes I did; and I do 100% agree. That being said, what kind of anti-poverty initiatives could work, and where would it start and end? One thing that needs to be ended being talked about in public discussion from black leaders: reparations for slavery. You can’t redo every past wrong. Anti-poverty initiatives assume that the correlation between poverty and crime means that poverty causes crime. There is very little evidence for this. For example, hispanics have about the same level of poverty as black americans but crime levels that are much less. During the great depression poverty soared and crime rates fell. Also during the 1960s crimes rates doubled even though the economy grew at one the fastest rates during american history. When it comes to race and poverty blacks who grow up in the top ten percent of income are the only income decile to have a lower chance of going to prison then the highest decile of whites by income. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/160 "2016-07-22T19:06:29Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It is not true that all races do drugs at the same rate. Studies have consistently found that while whites and blacks self report similar levels of drug use, testing shows that blacks are more likely to test positive for drugs while denying drug use. Do you have a cite for that? Who did they test? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713.md?page=9)