# The frequently-used "Blacks kill blacks, and it's overlooked" argument (Black Lives Matter) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713 "2016-07-12T07:57:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/161 "2016-07-22T19:44:06Z")
I don’t think police violence is entirely as simple as white people killing black people. Most police officers, indeed most white police officers, don’t kill any black people. Back up and read that again. However, _in certain cities,_ like St. Louis, police officers of all races are notorious for harassing, beating, extorting and generally abusing what we might call “low-class” people, and being black is a great way to be profiled as low-class people. Sometimes these victims of police brutality die, like Freddie Gray in Baltimore. The overwhelming majority do not. It’s not just the killing. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/162 "2016-07-22T19:49:57Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > We know the police force at times recruits low info neanderthals no doubt, but most of them are good people serving their community. Black crime needs to be addressed as well as white cop’s bias. “Black crime” is a myth. Blacks in the USA are more generally cynical about society & police, but they aren’t significantly more likely to commit crimes than white people. The “black criminal” is a piece of white folklore. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/163 "2016-07-22T19:56:50Z")
That’s going to be a controversial statement. But remember, two out of three black men _won’t_ go to prison in their lifetimes. And lots of white people commit crimes, such as drug crimes, and g_et away with it_. The majority of people of either race are\* largely\* if not perfectly law-abiding. The difference in convictions is a matter of some people having a pass to weasel out of consequences for less serious violations of law (“white privilege” or more precisely class privilege) while some other people don’t. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/164 "2016-07-22T20:07:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I understand what you were saying, but you ignored that the same percentage of each population does drugs, roughly, yet a much higher percentage of the black population are punished for it, and with longer sentences. > > Does that not bother you? You have to look at not just “the number os each that do drugs”, but what drug use becomes known to the cops. If some kids in Scarsdale or getting high in some big house, or going for a walk in the woods, no one is the wiser. An urban environment makes it harder to get high outside the watchful eye of cops or people who care. One thing that skews the results greatly are the percentages of each population that live in crowded urban environments. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/165 "2016-07-22T20:44:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You have to look at not just “the number os each that do drugs”, but what drug use becomes known to the cops. If some kids in Scarsdale or getting high in some big house, or going for a walk in the woods, no one is the wiser. An urban environment makes it harder to get high outside the watchful eye of cops or people who care. > > One thing that skews the results greatly are the percentages of each population that live in crowded urban environments. I recognize that – there are many factors aside from individual racism that can lead to disparate treatment. But it’s still disparate treatment – especially things like the longer sentences received for the same crimes – and such disparate treatment should be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/166 "2016-07-22T22:05:40Z")
> [@](#): > > I understand what you were saying, but you ignored that the same percentage of each population does drugs, roughly, yet a much higher percentage of the black population are punished for it, and with longer sentences. > > Does that not bother you? Merely doing drugs aren’t the crimes that people are talking about. They’re talking about drug dealing murder, robbery, rape, weapons, etc. The incidence of those among blacks as much higher than among whites. For minor offenses, it is definitely true blacks get the short end of the stick. Also, maybe what needs to be cleared up on this thread overall, is the issue of overrepresentation vs. underrepresentation. Take for example; Asians in Ivy League schools. There of course is a greater absolute number of whites in Ivy League schools. Why? Because there are far more whites in America than Asians. But what percentage of whites go to them vs. what percentage of Asians, as in (whites at IL schools divided by total whites) vs (Asians at IL schools divided by total Asian-Americans)? Also, is the percent of Ivy League school population that is Asian bigger than the percentage of the US population that is Asian? If we look at crime and blacks with that paradigm, that’s where the mention of black crime being high comes from. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/167 "2016-07-23T01:04:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? Who did they test? I already cited five papers earlier in the thread, but here are three more[1](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15933333), [2](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4104302/) [https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/182363.pdf](https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/182363.pdf). The populations studied in these three, were random people in chicago, gay men, and prisoners respectively. All found that blacks are no more likely to admit drug use but are more likely to test positive for drugs. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/168 "2016-07-23T01:15:33Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > That’s going to be a controversial statement. But remember, two out of three black men _won’t_ go to prison in their lifetimes. And lots of white people commit crimes, such as drug crimes, and g_et away with it_. The majority of people of either race are\* largely\* if not perfectly law-abiding. The difference in convictions is a matter of some people having a pass to weasel out of consequences for less serious violations of law (“white privilege” or more precisely class privilege) while some other people don’t. The majority of people in prison are in there for violent crime. Only 4% of white and black prisoners are in there for drug possession. The idea that the police are just letting white criminals go free just beggars belief. Since most of crime is among people of the same race, if white criminals are being ignored it means that white crime victims are being ignored as well. It also means that black crime victims are making things up on crime surveys, it means that every jurisdiction in america including many that have not had a majority white government in fifty years is misreporting its crime rate, it means that the liberal media is ignoring sensational crime stories because the perpetrators are white, it means that everyone who grew up in the inner cities is exaggerating, and that police have no idea who the people are who could kill them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/169 "2016-07-23T02:18:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I already cited five papers earlier in the thread, but here are three more[1](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15933333), [2](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4104302/) [https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/182363.pdf](https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/182363.pdf). The populations studied in these three, were random people in chicago, gay men, and prisoners respectively. All found that blacks are no more likely to admit drug use but are more likely to test positive for drugs. The summaries I could access indicated that black subjects were more likely to underreport crack or cocaine use, but more likely to overreport marijuana. It didn’t find any differences in positive tests for marijuana, but black offenders still go to jail a lot more for marijuana possession than white offenders, despite not testing positive for the drug more often, and black offenders get longer sentences. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/170 "2016-07-23T17:31:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The summaries I could access indicated that black subjects were more likely to underreport crack or cocaine use, but more likely to overreport marijuana. It didn’t find any differences in positive tests for marijuana, but black offenders still go to jail a lot more for marijuana possession than white offenders, despite not testing positive for the drug more often, and black offenders get longer sentences. The last study I could find of prisoners found that [.3](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/14/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-says-people-are-getting-prison-sent/)% of prisoners in state prisons were in jail for marijuana possession. If what you say is true that means that the number of black people in jail is at most .12% higher than it should be. Bad for those people but not a national problem. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/171 "2016-07-23T17:37:00Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The last study I could find of prisoners found that [.3](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/14/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-says-people-are-getting-prison-sent/)% of prisoners in state prisons were in jail for marijuana possession. If what you say is true that means that the number of black people in jail is at most .12% higher than it should be. Bad for those people but not a national problem. What about the longer sentences for black convicts for the same crimes? Any excuses for that to make sure to avoid acknowledging that there might be some systemic biases? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/172 "2016-07-26T19:27:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The summaries I could access indicated that black subjects were more likely to underreport crack or cocaine use, but more likely to overreport marijuana. It didn’t find any differences in positive tests for marijuana, but black offenders still go to jail a lot more for marijuana possession than white offenders, despite not testing positive for the drug more often, and black offenders get longer sentences. Do these summaries control for income? A drug offense has to be the crime where income comes most into play. Consider a rich person charged with possession. They can: (1) Bail out of jail (2) Pay for a treatment program (3) Hire competent a competent attorney (4) Pay for their own experts/tests to contradict the prosecution. A poor defendant can do none of those things. They’re stuck in jail without resources to mount a credible defense. It’s obvious why they are more likely to take a worse plea deal. And if it does go to trial, it’s also obvious why a defendant with means would have a better outcome. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713/173 "2016-07-26T19:41:59Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Do these summaries control for income? > > A drug offense has to be the crime where income comes most into play. Consider a rich person charged with possession. They can: > > (1) Bail out of jail > > (2) Pay for a treatment program > > (3) Hire competent a competent attorney > > (4) Pay for their own experts/tests to contradict the prosecution. > > A poor defendant can do none of those things. They’re stuck in jail without resources to mount a credible defense. It’s obvious why they are more likely to take a worse plea deal. And if it does go to trial, it’s also obvious why a defendant with means would have a better outcome. I don’t know if they controlled for income, but this kind of policy is discriminatory either way. Something doesn’t have to be intentional to be discriminatory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-frequently-used-blacks-kill-blacks-and-its-overlooked-argument-black-lives-matter/759713.md?page=8)