# The Friend Zone **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 9, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055 "2011-03-09T15:26:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![humblebumble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@humblebumble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humblebumble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/101 "2012-10-24T03:02:12Z")
I met my girlfriend in graduate school. She was an undergraduate at the time; however, now she’s a second year graduate student. She was a friend of mine before I dated her. She was a part of the group I hung out with at the time. I guess I’m fortunate because my girlfriend is also my best friend. She was pretty much the only one that would laugh at my lame jokes. That’s how I knew she was the one. Love ya, babe! > [@pancakes3](#): > > BigT pretty much answered for me. > > The friend zone is a deluded concept invented to assuage the inevitable truth of inadequacy. It’s a bunch of “tolerates” who desperately wish they were in the “attracted to”’ but know that they aren’t. Exactly! ---
**Author:** ![humblebumble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@humblebumble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humblebumble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/102 "2012-10-24T03:11:51Z")
Nice guys are just nice to people they want to bone. Also, they are self-entitled butt monkeys. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/103 "2012-10-24T03:20:44Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > BigT pretty much answered for me. > > Guys and girls both have lists of people they’re attracted to, people they tolerate, and people they dislike. The friend zone is a deluded concept invented to assuage the inevitable truth of inadequacy. It’s a bunch of “tolerates” who desperately wish they were in the “attracted to”’ but know that they aren’t. \ That’s kind of the definition of “the friend zone.” You’re her friend, not in her boyfriend pool. That is because she doesn’t want to date you. You are the person to whom she will complain about her boyfriends. I think the delusion here is that people can get out of the friend zone - I agree with everyone who’s saying that once you’re in, it’s very hard to get out because she just isn’t attracted to you as a boyfriend. This goes for both genders, of course, but (huge generalization) men are more likely to booty call a friend they don’t want to date than women are. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/104 "2012-10-24T04:50:23Z")
Well… let me just say that **Cat Whisperer** , you and I pretty much agree and we’re basically arguing over semantics. I think there’s more to the idea of the friend zone than just unrequited love than just the idea that one can overcome the friend zone. There’s also an element of selfishness and lack of self-awareness. I realize I come off as quite judgmental but it’s hard not to when discussing the irrational with rational arguments. For example, if there was a girl at the gym whose work out schedule coincides with mine so we strike up a rapport while plugging away at the elliptical. We chat and and become acquaintances of sorts. I’ll list 3 scenarios (out of many) of how this can play out, to help illustrate what I think is the clear difference between 2 people with different expectations and this myth of the friend zone. 1 - I ask her out and she says no. I feel bad about it but I don’t obsess over it and we stay gym acquaintances. Attracted-Tolerated. 2 - I ask her out and she says no. I feel bad and to compensate, I slowly escalate the relationship and continue to ask her out and continue to be denied. Attracted-Tolerate. 3 - I don’t ask her out but slowly escalate the relationship and wait for the right time - either years down the road or even never. Now, we agree that the problem with outcome 2 and 3 is the perception that “something can be done”. Where we don’t agree is that all 3 outcomes are the same. Outcome 2 and 3 are predicated on some idea that it makes no sense why she would reject me. I clearly perceive the two of us as equals as far as prospects go, and she must just be ignorant of that fact. I must do something about it. Not accepting that people of both genders make quick, definite decisions about date-ability is a self-imposed ignorance and that’s why I call it a lie. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/105 "2012-10-24T05:23:02Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > the friendzone is a lie and i’m having a hard time believing that hazel’s ex-obsessor of 5 years is so blase about it. I’m not sure what you mean by blase. It’s true that for five years he believed that he was in this mythical friendzone (i.e. - we are friends but if I try hard enough she will eventually realize that I could be the perfect boyfriend) but I believe him when he says he’s not in love with me anymore, and also I believe him when he says that he’s gained some perspective since then. I’m not sure what you think he’s lying about. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/106 "2012-10-24T09:32:32Z")
> [@humblebumble](#): > > Nice guys are just nice to people they want to bone. Also, they are self-entitled butt monkeys. That’s a very common sentiment around here. Certainly there are threads where there’s some whiny guy who thinks that he’s entitled to an amazing woman, or someone who claims to be a nice guy but who actually seems self-obsessed, superficial etc. But I think it’s very wrong to assume that all nice guys are really just scheming. I know plenty of men, and women, who are very nice to everyone (without being a doormat) and it’s genuinely part of their character, and yet they have severe relationship problems. It’s just not true that genuinely nice = Relationship WIN, and vice versa ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/107 "2012-10-24T13:53:17Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by blase. It’s true that for five years he believed that he was in this mythical friendzone (i.e. - we are friends but if I try hard enough she will eventually realize that I could be the perfect boyfriend) but I believe him when he says he’s not in love with me anymore, and also I believe him when he says that he’s gained some perspective since then. I’m not sure what you think he’s lying about. There’s a difference between gaining perspective and saying “wow in retrospect, I have no idea what I what doing back then. It all seems so trivial now.” as if he was brainwashed back then and is baffled at the thought of being attracted to you. No. We all still hold candles for ex’s, which emotionally speaking you are for him. Picture someone who’s dumped after falling hard for someone for 5 years and then to have that guy resume relations with the dump-er and say “wow I have no idea what I was thinking all those years ago.” There is heavy overtones of denial and overcompensation, to me at least. > [@Mijin](#): > > That’s a very common sentiment around here. > Certainly there are threads where there’s some whiny guy who thinks that he’s entitled to an amazing woman, or someone who claims to be a nice guy but who actually seems self-obsessed, superficial etc. > > But I think it’s very wrong to assume that all nice guys are really just scheming. > > I know plenty of men, and women, who are very nice to everyone (without being a doormat) and it’s genuinely part of their character, and yet they have severe relationship problems. > It’s just not true that genuinely nice = Relationship WIN, and vice versa I agree. Not a lot of “nice guys” are secretly entitled vindictive scheming assholes otherwise. They’re legitimately nice guys who are **extra** nice to the ones they want to woo. Aren’t we all? The problem with the self-proclaimed nice guy is that they’re also acquiescent doormats. Help you move? Sure. Act like a stand-in BF at a bar if someone is hitting on you? I can do that. Housesit for you while you and your BF go on vacation? Totally. Yes it’s nice, but it’s also being unattractively subservient. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/108 "2012-10-24T15:22:06Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I agree. Not a lot of “nice guys” are secretly entitled vindictive scheming assholes otherwise. They’re legitimately nice guys who are **extra** nice to the ones they want to woo. Aren’t we all? The problem with the self-proclaimed nice guy is that they’re also acquiescent doormats. Help you move? Sure. Act like a stand-in BF at a bar if someone is hitting on you? I can do that. Housesit for you while you and your BF go on vacation? Totally. Yes it’s nice, but it’s also being unattractively subservient. I agree, but I was actually trying to say you can be a nice guy AND not secretly scheming AND not be the other extreme of so nice you’re a doormat. Lots of guys are just really crap at the dating thing. It’s hard. My own observation is that most guys are hopeless until they have their first really successful relationship. And by “successful” I mean love, or at least strong infatuation, entirely reciprocated. And that he can honestly say his experiences with her were some of the best of his life. Regardless how it ends, this experience gives a guy a lot of confidence and also he knows what he’s shooting for in a relationship. What needs to happen and what makes it all worthwhile. Unfortunately, there’s a degree of luck involved in a hopeless guy having a relationship like that happen. So in the meantime, many men make mistakes like Friend Zoning themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/109 "2012-10-24T15:33:20Z")
(missed edit window) I wanted to add as well that although I’m speaking about the situation from a guy’s perspective, I’m not saying the woman is just passive. I suspect that much (not all) of what I wrote applies with genders reversed. ---
**Author:** ![Greekfreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@Greekfreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greekfreak)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/110 "2012-10-24T18:32:04Z")
It’s almost like a sign of weakness that some women detect–they figure if he’s not man enough to make the first move (so much for equality, right?), then he’s not worth dating. Mind you, I’ve only found this to come from broads who were out of my league but were entranced by my rap. I was definitely not a closer. One of my good friends in university and I kissed while drunk but then started laughing almost immediately–we both figured out then and there that we were always going to be better friends than lovers. I’d have enjoyed putting that to the test, however. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/111 "2012-10-24T18:35:22Z")
> [@Greekfreak](#): > > One of my good friends in university and I kissed while drunk but then started laughing almost immediately–we both figured out then and there that we were always going to be better friends than lovers. Are you Mary or Lou?\* \*Old reference you’re probably too young to get. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/112 "2012-10-24T18:42:23Z")
I have a strong aversion to the FriendZone because in my experience, people who ascribe much value to it also expect women to be like slot machines: insert enough Nice Coins and sex falls out. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/113 "2012-10-24T18:47:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > IUnfortunately, there’s a degree of luck involved in a hopeless guy having a relationship like that happen. So in the meantime, many men make mistakes like Friend Zoning themselves. Men don’t friend zone themselves. They are born in the friend zone. There is next to nothing a person can do to make a relationship happen if the basic attraction is not there. There are nice guys, and then there are Nice Guys. A nice guy is a genuinely friendly human being. A Nice Guy, on the other hand, is nice because he thinks it makes him superior to other people, especially the “jerks”. A Nice Guy operates under the assumption that any given woman he is attracted to _should_ be attracted to him, because he’s so nice. A Nice Guy believes that when he is rejected, it’s something wrong with her, or with women in general, rather than a simple reflection of mismatched attractions. A Nice Guy ruminates over rejection, rather than shrugging it off, until it becomes bitterness and anger. A Nice Guy ultimately shows little consideration for his object of affection. He does not respect her dreams and desires, and rather thinks he is owed something because he is attracted to her. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/114 "2012-10-24T18:58:10Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I have a strong aversion to the FriendZone because in my experience, people who ascribe much value to it also expect women to be like slot machines: insert enough Nice Coins and sex falls out. And there ain’t nothing pretty about the combination of “sex” and “things falling out.” NOTHING. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/115 "2012-10-24T19:32:22Z")
> [@Greekfreak](#): > > It’s almost like a sign of weakness that some women detect–they figure if he’s not man enough to make the first move (so much for equality, right?), then he’s not worth dating. Mind you, I’ve only found this to come from broads who were out of my league but were entranced by my rap. I was definitely not a closer. There is so much wrong with this thinking I don’t know where to begin. Well, how about here: Women do not detect signs of weakness like rabid dogs smelling pheromones or programmed T-1000s scanning you and computing “doesn’t make first move BEEP loser BOOP shunt to Friend Zone.” Drop that line of thinking altogether. Back up even further. Women are human beings like men are human beings. What do you do when you meet a woman you’re not attracted to? Think of all the dumpy and haggard women your gaze falls on as you go about your day. Does your computer brain run through the Attracted or NOT program (flowchart and all), or do you just (wait for it) not feel attraction? Then, if one of these women started hanging around you and making all sorts of hints that they were pining for you, how would you feel? ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/116 "2012-10-24T19:49:14Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > Back up even further. Women are human beings like men are human beings. What do you do when you meet a woman you’re not attracted to? Think of all the dumpy and haggard women your gaze falls on as you go about your day. Does your computer brain run through the Attracted or NOT program (flowchart and all), or do you just (wait for it) not feel attraction? Then, if one of these women started hanging around you and making all sorts of hints that they were pining for you, how would you feel? This is what it keeps coming back to for me. For some there really is the expectation that because THEY are attracted to a person that person SHOULD be attracted to them back. In another thread one of our posters said something like “Why would I be trying to impress/attract most men? Most men physically repulse me.” and although I wouldn’t use the word repulse, there’s truth there whether you’re a man or a woman describing your preferred sex. Most men I see are not men I am attracted to. People who do not need physical attraction are very few and far between. I know a lot of people think women don’t need it as much as men and maybe for some women that’s true, but not for the women I know. I like a guy with a sense of humor and what I consider to be a good personality but if I’m not physically attracted to him it’s over romantically. He can think I put him in a zone if that is what he wants to think but it’s not the “Guy behind glass break in case of emergency” type of zone many think of when they think Friend Zone. And since we always have people in these threads that link to comics to prove their points I will link to a [something I saw online](http://media-cache-ec4.pinterest.com/upload/229191068507643409_PB74J8Yd.jpg) to show the silliness of the Friend Zone idea that some people (read: not all) ascribe to. ---
**Author:** ![Greekfreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@Greekfreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greekfreak)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/117 "2012-10-24T19:58:40Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > There is so much wrong with this thinking I don’t know where to begin. > > Well, how about here: Women do not detect signs of weakness like rabid dogs smelling pheromones or programmed T-1000s scanning you and computing “doesn’t make first move BEEP loser BOOP shunt to Friend Zone.” Drop that line of thinking altogether. > > Back up even further. Women are human beings like men are human beings. What do you do when you meet a woman you’re not attracted to? Think of all the dumpy and haggard women your gaze falls on as you go about your day. Does your computer brain run through the Attracted or NOT program (flowchart and all), or do you just (wait for it) not feel attraction? Then, if one of these women started hanging around you and making all sorts of hints that they were pining for you, how would you feel? I’m not sure exactly how much you’ve been guzzling from the delusion fountain, but what I said is generally true of all humans–by the time you get to a certain age, you figure out that you have a “type”. If a woman is into assertive men, then some hesitant fella is getting the short end of the stick. Sorry to be truthful. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/118 "2012-10-24T20:12:03Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > Well, how about here: Women do not detect signs of weakness like rabid dogs smelling pheromones or programmed T-1000s scanning you and computing “doesn’t make first move BEEP loser BOOP shunt to Friend Zone.” Drop that line of thinking altogether. True. I never do that. When my programming sniffs weakness, I cockpunch 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/119 "2012-10-24T20:13:28Z")
This is why I always wear a cup around women. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/120 "2012-10-24T20:14:27Z")
> [@Greekfreak](#): > > I’m not sure exactly how much you’ve been guzzling from the delusion fountain, but what I said is generally true of all humans–by the time you get to a certain age, you figure out that you have a “type”. > > If a woman is into assertive men, then some hesitant fella is getting the short end of the stick. Sorry to be truthful. Uh, none of what you said contradicts what I said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055.md?page=7)