# The Friend Zone **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 9, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055 "2011-03-09T15:26:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/161 "2012-10-29T20:18:20Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > I can’t tell anything wrong with jsgoddess’s rules of thumb aside from the fact that they don’t even try to address what should constitute sexual harassment. Given the responses I’ve been getting, especially jsgoddess’, it seems several of you were under the impression that I was asking you for practical advice on how to hit on people at work. Is that so? That’s true, I’m not trying to address what should constitute sexual harassment. I’m trying to address what I thought the actual topic of the thread was, which was the “friend zone” and, apparently, social cluelessness. If sexual harassment as a whole is the new topic, count me out. My comments in no way attempt to define it. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/162 "2012-10-29T20:20:44Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > You don’t say? I honestly never dreamed that would need to be pointed out. When will I stop being amazed at some things around here? Amazing indeed. I was only led to state the obvious after you implied that men don’t understand the obvious point in question. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/163 "2012-10-29T20:30:49Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > My question is, what are they are advocating then? That women consider all sexual advances from men either welcomed or unwelcomed, just so no men are discriminated against? I hope not, because that’s just stupid. Just because I might be more tolerant of an unsolicitied hand squeeze from George Clooney, that doesn’t mean I have to tolerate Jim Bob Brown from cubicle 9-233 when he makes similar advances. Could it be that George senses my attraction towards him and is flirting in response to signals of interest I’m sending him (involuntarily or voluntarily)? Of course he very well might be. If I know for a fact that I’m not sending Jim Bob those signals, there is no reason in the hell why I should welcome his hands on me. When Jim Bob does this its not wrong for me to infer that he’s acting a little bit like a creep. > > It really isn’t that complicated. But it is. The vast majority of men are neither George Clooneys nor Jim Bobs. They might honestly believe they ARE getting those signals, and then react to them while only you know whether you are interested or not. Very complicated for men especially with the stakes so high (lawsuit? hooking up with a desirable a women? hope you guess right, bucko! And yes–sadly for some men it can amount to little better than a guess). ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/164 "2012-10-29T20:33:53Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > It doesn’t because of the “reckless about them being unwanted”. Or one could say that it’s sexual harassment if it’s 1) unwanted sexual advances and 2) the defendant did not have reasons to believe, overall, that it would be wanted. Using this rule, someone could label an out-of-the-blue date request as sexual harrassment, if the person doing the asking has no reasons to think it would be wanted. For instance, if they are asking out a complete stranger. “Reckless about them being unwanted” is ambiguous and requires someone who very likely has poor judgement about appropriate social interactions to recognize when they are acting recklessly or not. Not very useful, in other words. > [@](#): > > In any case, there has to be some element of intent or recklessness or willful blindness on the part of the person accused of sexual harassment. No there doesn’t have to be. If a man is bugging me with unaccepted date requests or making sexually graphic comments to me, it doesn’t matter to if he’s just too stupid to recognize a rejection or he’s willfully ignoring my wishes. He’s still harrassing me. What’s going on in his mind has nothing to do with whether or not he’s making a pest out of himself. > [@](#): > > I can’t tell anything wrong with jsgoddess’s rules of thumb aside from the fact that they don’t even try to address what should constitute sexual harassment. Given the responses I’ve been getting, especially jsgoddess’, it seems several of you were under the impression that I was asking you for practical advice on how to hit on people at work. Is that so? Why do you need us to address what constitutes sexual harassment, if you’re not looking for practical advice? If this is just an academic exercise for you, then maybe you should make that clearer. But the questions you’re asking mark you as someone who is hopelessly overanalytical about basic stuff. For instance, this question: > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t having reasons to believe, overall, that it will be welcome (rather than knowing it will be welcome) be a more realistic standard? I recommend not being so literal. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/165 "2012-10-29T20:38:36Z")
I’m not sure what **MichaelEmouse** is hoping to accomplish at this point. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/166 "2012-10-29T20:43:33Z")
If you fear what will happen, don’t hit on coworkers. If you’re afraid that you’re socially inept, don’t hit on coworkers. If people have complained about you, don’t hit on coworkers. If you think the rules are too complicated, don’t hit on coworkers. If you believe in the existence of the friend zone and think that women have built a system of arcane rules designed to hamstring nice guys, don’t hit on coworkers. This has nothing to do with what the laws on sexual harassment are. This has to do with risk aversion. If you are clueless and you know you’re clueless don’t do things that might cause you trouble. I, for example, have a terrible sense of direction. Therefore, I avoid getting into situations where I need a good sense of direction. There are no laws that cover it and no rules and no mean people setting me up to fail. I simply know my own limitations. It’s no one else’s fault. ETA: This was in response to I Love Me, Vol I. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/167 "2012-10-29T20:45:14Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > But it is. The vast majority of men are neither George Clooneys nor Jim Bobs. They might honestly believe they ARE getting those signals, and then react to them while only you know whether you are interested or not. Very complicated for men especially with the stakes so high (lawsuit? hooking up with a desirable a women? hope you guess right, bucko! And yes–sadly for some men it can amount to little better than a guess). By the time a guy is an adult, he should have a good idea of how accurate his “she likes me” detector is. If almost everyone he thinks likes him ends up rejecting his offers to go out, then that probably means he sucks at interpreting signals from the opposite sex. Doesn’t make him a jerk or anything, but it means he needs be careful before he acts. He can’t expect to pull George Clooney’s moves without making more than a few women uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/168 "2012-10-29T20:52:28Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Amazing indeed. I was only led to state the obvious after you implied that men don’t understand the obvious point in question. Except I did no such implying. Also, have you looked around this board? There are PLENTY of men here who don’t understand the obvious point in question. I honestly didn’t think I needed to tell you that I believe grabbing a boob at work is not OK even if the guy is datable. The fact that you made a point of pointing it out was funny yet very odd. To put it super simple: Men are generally going to be more receptive to suggestions, advances, and conversation from a woman he finds attractive more than a woman he finds unattractive. Guess what? The same is true of a woman. HUMANS are alike in this way. The frustrating thing about these threads is that while this idea that HUMANS are going to behave this way generally is probably agreed upon by most there always seems to be a guy who comes blundering in with “O yeah, well I bet if I was good looking she’d be more open to my request for a date! Right guys? AMIRIGHT?” My answer is: DUH. That’s a human trait and women are allowed to be shallow in that way every bit as much as men are. Maybe the men who say this aren’t trying to do so but the FEELING I get (and I know from my PM box here that I’m not alone) is that if we women would just quit being so PICKY and let us all have our shot things would go better for all of us! Does this mean that if we’re out shopping and a good looking guy tries to chat us up we will ALWAYS give him attention (like a link to an earlier thread indicated)? No. Sometimes good looking guys we are attracted to can creep us the hell out, too. But in general people will accept more from someone they find attractive. There have only been thousands of studies that have proven this. Some people can read signs and some people can’t. Like others have mentioned: Yes, the stakes are high so if you can’t read the signs and insist on continuing after being told no then it’s best not to try it at work. There, stakes aren’t so high now. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/169 "2012-10-29T20:55:13Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Absolutely, which is one reason why Butterflies’ statement above was overly broad nonsense. I see she’s stepped away from it which is to her credit. I didn’t need to step away from it because it was never intended to be THE definition of sexual harassment. It was a couple of you fellas playing GOTCHA! who wanted to assume I did so please stop the nonsense. It’s not true no matter how many times you want to frame it as such. I really do think this board seems to have a higher than normal number of socially awkward people. I think that’s why there are so many threads here asking for advice about things that most people know intuitively or learn over time through normal social interaction with other people. Threads like “how do I tell the woman at work I don’t want to read the books she suggests?” or “why do people like to go to parties?” or the “nerd walks into a bar and observes” or “my coworker smiled at me, are they interested in dating me?” illustrates (to me anyway) that although there might be a smarter than average readership on the board, social skills are lower on the list of accomplishments of many.\*\* The sad thing is that in these socially awkward threads instead of reading and trying to understand the things they desperately need to we have too many people wanting to play the “What if ?” game with rather ridiculous examples that can’t be answered without qualifying every.single.thing. And I can’t help but notice that the OP of this thread is one who is both in these types of threads often and participates in the nitpicking beyond all reason fun. So in the end you “win” the discussion because nobody wants to continue a back and forth with what sounds like you’re discussing a topic with a I.M. Android, Esquire.\* YaY you win the argument but the social skills to be gained? Not so much. - - I can’t stress this enough. \*\*- PLEASE note I am talking about some. If you have good social skills I’m not talking about you. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/170 "2012-10-29T21:53:06Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I’m not sure what **MichaelEmouse** is hoping to accomplish at this point. I’m not certain, but I think he may be flirting with you all. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/171 "2012-10-29T22:29:09Z")
Okay, how about a couple IRL examples from the cubicle farm? Greg “I’m a married man, but every time Sheila walks by my desk, she smiles at me and her nipples get hard. She’s into me.” Me: “You idiot. Sheila smiles at everyone because she’s nice. And you sit under the cold air vent.” Me: “Phillip, get your hands off me. Now.” Philip: “You just need to relax. Women love my backrubs. Besides, I’m married, so you have nothing to worry about. Geez, women are so uptight!” Me: “Goddamn it Philip I don’t want you to touch me or anyone else here. Would you rub my shoulders in front of your wife or my boss? Then stop!!” Jason asked what kind of music I listened to, then suggested we go see a local band play. Told him no thanks, my boyfriend wouldn’t approve. He said let me know if your situation changes. Another coworker asked if I were single, said he was asking for a friend. I said no, I’m in a relationship. He said cool, I’ll tell my buddy. Another coworker I’d never spoken to waltzed up to my desk on Valentine’s Day, laid a single rose across my keyboard, bowed deeply, and walked away. If you can’t tell which of these is offensive, creepy, lame, or harmless, don’t hit on your coworkers. ---
**Author:** ![Diamonds02](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Diamonds02](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diamonds02)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/172 "2012-10-29T22:41:27Z")
I don’t get women who friendzone. I would bone almost all of my female friends. If I’m not sexually attracted to a woman, it’s hard for me to form a friendship with her in the first place. My attraction to my preferred gender is wholistic. Only later in the friendship, I can view her in a strictly platonic sense, I guess once the novelty wears off. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/59ef9b/32.png) [@FlyingRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRat)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/173 "2012-10-29T23:22:49Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I’m not sure what **MichaelEmouse** is hoping to accomplish at this point. I think he’s trying (badly) to nail down some kind of “legal”, ultra-logical definition of sexual harassment, in the belief that that’s the only definition that could possibly matter. It’s one of those “Logic is EVERYTHING!!1!” geek fallacies. In reality, there is a huge distinction (and there should be) between rigorous _legal_ definitions, and _socially acceptable_ attitudes and behavior-- which is exactly as it should be. It’s in exactly the same vein as the whole case of Violentacrez (the Reddit troll): even speech or action that is technically legal can damn well be socially abhorrent, especially if it objectifies others. And this is what not sexually harrassing women (or anyone) comes down to: _don’t objectify them_. Be respectful of their agency, wishes and time. Approach only if it is clear that an interruption would be welcome (ie, not when someone is engrossed in a book or similar). Express your interest politely, and (especially for women) in a non-threatening manner: don’t corner a woman in an elevator or enclosed space, because that respects the (justifiably) higher threat perception that many of us have. Don’t touch, unless you have received a very clear communication that it is welcome-- if there’s any doubt, don’t do it. And if the other person says no (or, better yet, anything but an unequivocal yes), then acknowledge and respect that. If they indicate discomfort with the encounter, an apology may be called for. Then, _go away_ for a while, at least, and don’t approach them again with the same question: recognize that the ball is in their court now. Maybe they aren’t into you at all, or maybe you caught them off guard while they were thinking about flossing their cat or something-- in either case, they don’t owe you anything. Could following the above guidelines lead to missing out on encounters that could be fruitful? Yes. Will it (far more importantly) get you a reputation as someone who is respectful and does not harass? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/174 "2012-10-29T23:42:10Z")
FlyingRat, I do agree that there is a distinction between what is legal and what is socially acceptable Often times, the legal limits of acceptability and the moral/social limits of acceptability are quite different. However, when someone mentions how sexual harassment is defined, especially in a work context, they are nearly always referencing legal rules or rules which can result in discipline and dismissal, not merely social rules. Butterflies mentioned an incomplete definition of sexual harassment and I kept saying that it was incomplete. Now she’s said that definition wasn’t meant to be taken seriously and I won’t argue that point with her anymore. Next time someone touches me on the arm without me having given them very clear communication that it’s welcome, what do you recommend I do? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/175 "2012-10-29T23:46:43Z")
What a Reasonable Woman would do, of course. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/176 "2012-10-30T01:02:52Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > What a Reasonable Woman would do, of course. Well, you’re a reasonable woman, what would you do if it were a stranger who touched you on the arm without you having given very clear communication that it’s welcome? An acquaintance? A coworker? A friend? Since I ask you that question, I should give you the courtesy of answering yours. Each adjective is used once, right? Greg is lame. Philip is offensive. Jason is harmless. Rose boy is creepy. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/177 "2012-10-30T01:20:06Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Okay, how about a couple IRL examples from the cubicle farm? > Greg “I’m a married man, but every time Sheila walks by my desk, she smiles at me and her nipples get hard. She’s into me.” Me: “You idiot. Sheila smiles at everyone because she’s nice. And you sit under the cold air vent.” > > Me: “Phillip, get your hands off me. Now.” Philip: “You just need to relax. Women love my backrubs. Besides, I’m married, so you have nothing to worry about. Geez, women are so uptight!” Me: “Goddamn it Philip I don’t want you to touch me or anyone else here. Would you rub my shoulders in front of your wife or my boss? Then stop!!” > > Jason asked what kind of music I listened to, then suggested we go see a local band play. Told him no thanks, my boyfriend wouldn’t approve. He said let me know if your situation changes. Another coworker asked if I were single, said he was asking for a friend. I said no, I’m in a relationship. He said cool, I’ll tell my buddy. > > Another coworker I’d never spoken to waltzed up to my desk on Valentine’s Day, laid a single rose across my keyboard, bowed deeply, and walked away. > > If you can’t tell which of these is offensive, creepy, lame, or harmless, don’t hit on your coworkers. Have to admit I’m not sure about that last one. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/178 "2012-10-30T01:28:08Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Well, you’re a reasonable woman, what would you do if it were a stranger who touched you on the arm without you having given very clear communication that it’s welcome? An acquaintance? No way, nuh unh. Not getting sucked in to another one. If the reasonable woman legal standard sufficient for the lawyer, tough. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/179 "2012-10-30T01:34:23Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > Have to admit I’m not sure about that last one. I felt it was kind of lame and awkward. A coworker with a crush on him who had tried to initiate conversation with him several times thought it was romantic and wished she were in my place. (And no, the rose gesture was not harassment. It embarrassed me, that’s all.) ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055/180 "2012-10-30T01:37:26Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > No way, nuh unh. Not getting sucked in to another one. If the reasonable woman legal standard sufficient for the lawyer, tough. If you don’t try to read my mind and figure out what’s really behind my question, there shouldn’t be any problems. I have discussions on plenty of topics and the only times I have this kind of problem is when the other person does one of two things: 1. The other person says A and expects me to read their mind accross Internet and conclude that A really meant B. 2. I say A and the person tries to read my mind accross Internet and concludes that A really meant B. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-friend-zone/574055.md?page=10)