# The fucking stupid fuck French **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577 "2005-11-05T00:13:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/61 "2005-11-05T15:57:12Z")
Politics is one thing and something I often follow, though I know less about European politics than domestic politics. Politicans are another and often interchangable. But **yojimbo** asked me to name a more conservative electable French politician. I can’t, because I don’t (and to some degree can’t) follow French domestic politics that closely and have no real wish to when there’s plenty to watch here at home. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/62 "2005-11-05T16:34:44Z")
From an A.P. story published in my local paper today, commenting on the riots and warnings from American and Russian officials to their citizens to avoid certain areas: “The French Foreign Ministry, however, said it was concerned that foreign reporters were exaggerating the situation.” Gotta love the jingoism. “No problem here…it’s them _furriners_ that are making trouble.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/63 "2005-11-05T16:48:26Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Look, if Chirac is conservative then Bush is a Commie. Eh…Industry owned by government…government owned by industry…Really is a thing line… ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/64 "2005-11-05T20:14:31Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Look, if Chirac is conservative then Bush is a Commie. So, unless you care to elaborate… > [@asterion](#): > > I can’t, because I don’t (and to some degree can’t) follow French domestic politics that closely and have no real wish to when there’s plenty to watch here at home. For someone who admits that he’s completely fucking ignorant of foreign politics, you’re awfully sure of your assertion that Chirac isn’t a conservative. So, how about this, you tell us what makes Chirac left wing. He’s campaigned on promises to cut taxes, privatize nationalized industries, get tougher on criminals, etc. He’d fit in quite well as a moderate Republican. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/65 "2005-11-06T04:29:33Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Look, if Chirac is conservative then Bush is a Commie. So, unless you care to elaborate… What exactly makes you think Chirac isn’t a conservative? FYI, he has been the most proeminent leader of the french conservative party since…the 70s. Yes…he’s been around for a very looong time. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/66 "2005-11-06T04:35:10Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > \*I know a lot of French people who held their nose and voted against Le Pen not for Chirac You can’t count one more. Chirac had been the archetypal political ennemy for…well…for all my life. And I found myself putting his name on the ballot. I really felt weird doing so (more than I expected before actually voting). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/67 "2005-11-06T04:44:02Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I completely agree **furt**. > > My point was that **asterion** seemed to me to be talking about the US idea of what a conservative is and not a French one. My Euro idea of the term conservative is to be right of center within your countries definition of what that means. The french right is basically divided in two ideologies (morer than that, of course, but I’m refering to the main parties. Also, I exclude the extreme-right) : - An economically liberal (in the european meaning of the term ) but generally socially liberal too, right, which is generally considered in France to be closer to the center. - A more conservative and more populist right, which is the party Chirac used to lead. So, by french standarts, Chirac would be considered a little more than “right of center”. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/68 "2005-11-06T04:51:14Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Wow. You really are clueless about French politics. Not if he’s using the word “conservative” as it is typically interpreted in the US. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/69 "2005-11-06T05:23:44Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > He’s conservative by the French definition. He’d be on the left of the Democrat party in the US. He wouldn’t. Parts of the US leftist agenda definitely wouldn’t fit in the french conservatives agenda. The difference is…the existing social structure, I would say. It’s a given in France that there’s an universal health care, for instance. So, Chirac and his supporters would want to somewhat reduce its scope. In the USA, there’s no such thing, but the conservatives would want to reduce the existing safety net. Taxes are higher in France, but Chirac wants to reduce them like Bush does (of course resulting here too in a growing deficit). And so on. So, implementing fully Chirac policies, maybe we would still end up more to the socialist side than the USA if they imlemented fully some democrat’s policies, but roughly, the direction is the same, from a different starting point. Also, there are some politicians who would want to go much farther towards economical liberalism and a free market, but they don’t have much appeal in France because their stance run contrary to the political expectation of french people. Statements that would refer to core values in America are just iconoclast in France. However, these politicians wouldn’t be Bush-like, either, because they tend to be also socially liberal. Actually, you can’t really find an equivalence between french politics and american politics just by just shifting to the left. American left isn’t the same at all as french right and an american leftist would probably be in a more familiar environment with french leftists. They would share horror stories about the ruthless treatment of the poors or about the evil companies paying a pittance to their workers or laying them off to outsource their production. Then, they could go together to a pro SSM marriage protest. Maybe what the french leftist thinks is not enough the american leftist would think an unachievable dream, but the mindset, it seems to me, is roughly the same. I’m not sure it would be the same for the american right-winger and his counterpart. I think that some issues, like religion and strong defiance towards the government, for instance, would be alien concept for a french right-winger. Also, he would be much less patriotic. But he would complain about the taxes, the incompetence of the public sector, or the social handouts all the same. I can think of only one french politician who would be somewhat similar to Bush (very religious, anti-abortion, patriotic, pro-business, etc…) but he got only some percent of the votes during the last elections, mostly coming from the very small strongly conservative christian subset of the population. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/70 "2005-11-06T05:33:54Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > Eh…Industry owned by government…government owned by industry…Really is a thing line… Actually, Chirac successive governments have sold as much public companies as they could within the limits of what would not cause a major uproar extending from the concerned workers to the general population (for instance, the privatization of the ferry company between France and Corsica recently caused major troubles, while the national telephone company shares have being sold to the private sector bit by bit, apparently without anybody noticing). If you compare the situation now with the situation in the mid 80s, most of what used to be state-owned company have been privatized. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/71 "2005-11-06T21:09:32Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Parts of the US leftist agenda definitely wouldn’t fit in the french conservatives agenda. True, but in general, I think he would > [@](#): > > I can think of only one french politician who would be somewhat similar to Bush (very religious, anti-abortion, patriotic, pro-business, etc…) but he got only some percent of the votes during the last elections, mostly coming from the very small strongly conservative christian subset of the population. Le Pen? I think that’s going a bit far. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/72 "2005-11-06T21:35:49Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Le Pen? I think that’s going a bit far. Nope. De Villiers. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/73 "2005-11-06T21:36:38Z")
Back to the riots and new immigrants. What I find interesting and somewhat disturbing is that many immigrants don’t really know much about the country (and it’s work/living conditions for new immigrants) they are going to before they get there. (refugees are a different matter). I see time and time again, bewildered and sometimes angry new immigrants who can’t get the jobs they want because their qualifications aren’t recognised, their English isn’t good enough and some employers don’t want new immigrants working for them. Many are reduced to living in low socio-economic areas and accepting jobs they feel are beneath them. Let alone understanding what it is to live in a predominantly christian country when you are muslim etc. I personally, have had a better idea of the countries I have gone to live in, before going. It is also a fault of government, to accept so many people but not have support structures in place for them. Also to send seductive images of what a great country the host country is, when in reality it can be a huge truggle for new immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/74 "2005-11-06T21:47:53Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > Back to the riots and new immigrants. What I find interesting and somewhat disturbing is that many immigrants don’t really know much about the country . Not very relevant to the current issue in France, since the rioters are second or third genration immigrants and were born here. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/75 "2005-11-06T21:51:33Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Not very relevant to the current issue in France, since the rioters are second or third genration immigrants and were born here. Okay, but relevant to their parents, which is why they are in immigrant ghettos. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/76 "2005-11-07T10:17:01Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > Okay, but relevant to their parents, which is why they are in immigrant ghettos. I can’t speak for **clairobscur** , but I believe the ‘immigrant’\*) situation is comparable to the one in the Netherlands. They _don’t_ live in immigrant ghettos. They live in cheap houses. Like [in the Netherlands] millions of NON-muslims do. \*\*) We \*don’t \* see them as immigrants. We see them as Dutch. [also because you can’t see the difference between a Dutch and a Morrocan/Dutch, or Turkish/Dutch] I do, however, believe they \* themselves \* see each-other as muslim first, then Dutch - or French. \* ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/77 "2005-11-07T11:34:47Z")
And it has spread to [Belgium](http://www.standaard.be/Kanaal/Index.aspx?artikelId=DMF07112005_011&kanaalid=62) & [Germany](http://www.faz.net/s/Rub594835B672714A1DB1A121534F010EE1/Doc~E0266DD44E2A244AEA938A2FB7E71E997~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html) ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/78 "2005-11-07T13:15:41Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > Okay, well other than champagne, the Statue of Liberty, safe milk, cooperation in the War on Terror, oxygen, and our freedom, what have the French ever done for us? Yeah, where would be if they hadn’t invented oxygen\> :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/79 "2005-11-07T13:42:10Z")
> [@Operation Ripper](#): > > WTF is going on over there? How the fuck can RIOTS go on for weeks? How can a nation function when it can’t do shiite to stop a bunch of punk kids from torching cars FOR WEEKS? FOR WEEKS I SAY! What has become of France? :mad: Yeah, just look how well we Yanks handled the Rodney King riots … :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ctrod22](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/278dde/32.png) [@ctrod22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctrod22)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577/80 "2005-11-07T17:29:06Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Yeah, just look how well we Yanks handled the Rodney King riots … :rolleyes: By entering its 11th or 12th day the Paris Suburb Riots have now lasted twice as long as the 1992 LA Riots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fucking-stupid-fuck-french/329577.md?page=5)