# The full range of things called 'pudding' in the USA **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 28, 2024, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445 "2024-06-28T14:00:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/141 "2024-07-02T11:36:59Z")
Forgive me if I missed it (I did a Search and also a quick look-through, and didn’t find it), but one other kind of American pudding is **Indian Pudding**. This is completely unlike the usual American puddings, and is a concoction made with corn meal. It’s a very old New England dish, and used to be a standard at Durgin-Park in Boston until that almost-two-centuries-old establishment folded five years ago. (It was founded in 1827). It’s apparently what you get when you substitute corn meal for flour in British Hasty Pudding. > **[Indian Pudding • America's oldest dessert!](https://theviewfromgreatisland.com/indian-pudding/)** > > Indian Pudding is a delicious baked pudding made with cornmeal and molasses that dates back to colonial times~ perfect for Thanksgiving! > **[Indian Pudding Recipe from 1879 | A Taste of Culinary History — Under A Tin Roof](https://underatinroof.com/blog/video-indian-pudding-from-1879)** > > Journey back in time with our Indian Pudding Recipe from 1879, a delightful taste of culinary history. This vintage recipe takes you to the heart of 19th-century cooking, where classic ingredients and techniques create a timeless comfort food. Learn... PS – I’m being told that SAint Cad already posted one of these links, but I’ve already written the post, so I’m posting it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/142 "2024-07-02T12:08:42Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Is there a transatlantic difference in the cultural tendency to want a named thing to have a precise or specific definition. > > I ask because: > > - We already talked about _pudding_ - and it means just about everything here in the UK - and not many people here would bat an eye if the term ‘pudding’ started to appear in some fresh context. > - ‘Crumble’, here, contains both things ‘crumble’ and ‘crisp’ from that chart - certainly most traditional crumble recipes are usually topped with crumbs made from flour, sugar and butter, but people add oats, nuts, seeds, crushed biscuits etc, and it’s still just ‘crumble’. > - I have often encountered people from the USA telling me, for example ‘that’s not a pie, because it only has a top crust’, or ‘that’s not a pie, it’s called a _pot_ pie’ - but pies here may have a full crust, top crust only, or in the case of things like shepherd’s pie, don’t have a pastry crust at all, and meat-filled pies are generally still just called pies. > > Am I right in perceiving a _general_ difference in the desired level of precision on opposite sides of the pond, or are these just three examples that don’t represent the larger picture? I doubt it. “Dessert” is a pretty general term. And i think there are always both people who use general and specific terms. Fwiw, my reaction is similar to yours re that chart. I’ve had a dish called “cobbler” that it would have categorized as either crumble or crisp. And i certainly don’t distinguish between what it calls a crumble and a crisp, and wonder if anyone does. And i think of chicken pot pie as a form of pie. (I don’t think shepherds pie is pie, despite the name. Also, in the US, shepherds pie can be made with any meat, and is usually beef unless otherwise specified. I’ve heard that in the UK it needs to be lamb, and it’s ‘cottage pie’ if it’s made with beef.) A popular Internet meme plays on the differences between purists and anarchists. There’s are lots of variants on this meme out there: > **[Nudity and Nerdery](https://www.tumblr.com/nudityandnerdery/612548221322035200/this-pi-day-dont-be-afraid-to-start-arguments)** > > This Pi Day, don’t be afraid to start arguments with friends over what constitutes a pie. Here’s a more British one… (No one in the US defaults to thinking “savory” when “pie” is mentioned.) > **[The Pie Alignment Chart - eigenmagic](https://www.eigenmagic.com/2020/03/01/the-pie-alignment-chart/)** > > The Pie Alignment Chart. Read More And here’s one that focuses on a classic American lunch > **[Sandwich alignment chart](https://flowingdata.com/2017/05/02/sandwich-alignment-chart/)** > > By @matttomic, this chart speaks to me. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/143 "2024-07-02T12:26:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t think shepherds pie is pie, despite the name. But this is an example of what I was talking about; the notion of qualifying or disqualifying things from categories. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/144 "2024-07-02T12:26:51Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Am I right in perceiving a _general_ difference in the desired level of precision on opposite sides of the pond, or are these just three examples that don’t represent the larger picture? I think it’s just three examples that aren’t representative - sure, _pudding_ is a somewhat specific item in the US - but we have _dessert_ which is as every bit as general as _pudding_ is to you. _Crumble_ to you might contain both what I call would a _crumble_ and what I call a _crisp_ - but I don’t think anyone except bakers actually refers to nine different types just like most people, most of the time use “ice cream” to cover every frozen dessert that contains dairy and might use “ice” to cover any that don’t have dairy. The difference is I think is really whether people are using specialized vocabulary and to take it out of the “last course” there are many people who don’t get more specific than _steak_ or _roast beef_ while others will be “Steak - that doesn’t tell me anything. What _kind_ of steak?” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/145 "2024-07-02T12:27:36Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I think it’s just three examples that aren’t representative I could list many, many more. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/146 "2024-07-02T12:59:47Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > we have _dessert_ which is as every bit as general as _pudding_ Whilst ‘pudding’ is synonymous with ‘dessert’ in the sense where it is used nonspecifically to refer to the usually-final, usually-sweet course of a meal, that is a different use of the word from where it appears as part of the name of a long list of different dishes such as Bakewell pudding, bread and butter pudding, steak and kidney pudding, etc. So it wouldn’t be especially weird for someone to say “we’ve got rice pudding for pudding”. What I’m talking about is what I perceive to be a difference in the tendency to accept a new or outlying thing as being in a class or category or other group. There may be considerable bias or error in my observations, and this is not a criticism, but it seems like the tendency to declare something as, for example ‘not a pie because it does not conform in some way’ is more prevalent in the USA than the UK. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/147 "2024-07-02T13:09:30Z")
Maybe I didn’t word that quite right - I don’t think it’s a matter of desired precision on one side of the pond or the other as much as it’s a matter of desired precision on the part of a particular person in a particular situation and the “pudding” situation , where a more general word to you is a more specific word to me confuses things. There’s also the issues of both where we are having this conversation and the subject of the conversation . I’d bet 90% of Americans don’t know the difference between _sherbet_ and _sorbet_ - but I guarantee someone here not only knows the difference, but will correct a person who orders lemon sherbet when only lemon sorbet is available. And you just can’t talk about the “full range of things called X in the USA ( or the UK )” without being more specific - I can’t talk about what’s called “pie” without mentioning types of pies which is going to involve pot pies and fruit pies and shepherd’s pie and pizza and I might mention that “cobbler” isn’t pie even though if I go to the bakery for pie I might come back with a cobbler. Or for that matter, I might go for cake and come back with a pie. There might be a difference in what you or I expect if someone invites us over for “pie” or “cake” -I’m going to be surprised if it’s shepherd’s pie or fishcakes . Would you? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/148 "2024-07-02T13:22:19Z")
I think we’re possibly talking past each other. I’m talking about the tendency to do exactly this (sorry @puzzlegal, not picking on you, but it’s a perfect example): > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t think shepherds pie is pie, despite the name I perceive a greater tendency to do this sort of thing on the US side. As I say, could just be bias or misperception on my part. Now that I think about it, this probably wasn’t the place to ask. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/149 "2024-07-02T13:33:50Z")
Because for us there is nothing pie-like about Shepherd’s pie. If it developed in American cuisine, it be called Shepherd’s casserole or Shepherrd’a hotdish. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/150 "2024-07-02T13:43:22Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I think we’re possibly talking past each other. I don’t think so - because @puzzlegal is only going to have an opportunity to say that in this sort of conversation. It will never come up otherwise except in a somewhat contrived circumstance where she’s telling someone you can’t buy shepherd’s pie or meat cakes or pancakes in a bakery because they aren’t really that sort of cake/pie. Earlier , I mentioned the differences between frozen custard and soft serve ice cream but that was only because of the topic of the conversation - it’s not like I correct people who talk about getting ice cream at a place that only serves frozen custard. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/151 "2024-07-02T13:43:55Z")
Just wait a damned minute. Why hasn’t compote been mentioned?! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/152 "2024-07-02T13:46:46Z")
I’m not necessarily talking about people correcting other people. I’m talking about the difference betweeen the way people conceptualise categories of things - [lumpers and splitters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/153 "2024-07-02T13:48:00Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Because for us there is nothing pie-like about Shepherd’s pie. If it developed in American cuisine, it be called Shepherd’s casserole or Shepherrd’a hotdish. I think this is sort of what I mean. For us, there isn’t (I believe) so strong of a requirement for it to be pie-like. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/154 "2024-07-02T13:53:47Z")
Yes, but if I don’t correct you about the frozen custard/ice cream you won’t _know_ if I’m a lumper or a splitter unless we are specifically having a conversation about lumping vs splitting. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/155 "2024-07-02T13:55:34Z")
Some of the difference between the US and UK may be the size of the US and many regional sub-cultures we have. I think Americans are as capable of viewing pudding and pie as a general concepts as we are of more specific definitions. Where fruit pies are traditional and common a Shepherd’s Pie may get denied pie status while any semi-soft concoction is accepted as pudding. I live in on a tiny island with a French Canadian influence in a portion of it and meat pies are commonly found. Meat pies have a great deal in common with Shepherd’s Pie but locals will point out the vast differences between the two (which is almost entirely the lack of a pie crust in traditional Shepherds’s Pie). As willing as we are to claim “That is not pie” or “That is not pudding” we can just as easily say “Of course that’s pie” or “Of course that’s pudding” as the circumstances require, and the regional diversity of custom creates more circumstances than you may find in the UK. I think it’s likely the same thing happens there on a smaller scale. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/156 "2024-07-02T13:55:35Z")
OK, @Mangetout, what’s your opinion on shepherd’s pudding, or pie tikka masala? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/157 "2024-07-02T13:59:09Z")
So I don’t understand. Do you want everything served in a deep dish to be called “pie” or something? (I suppose we do it somewhat cheekily when we call pizza “pie,” but that’s also the etymology of the word.) Like why wouldn’t you want some sort of framework to define “pie” vs “not-pie”? It makes it easier to understand what you’re getting. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/158 "2024-07-02T14:02:55Z")
I’m not looking for an argument, or saying anyone is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/159 "2024-07-02T14:04:59Z")
They sound fascinating. Curry pies already exist, but perhaps pie tikka masala would be a pie served in a curry gravy, sort of katsu-pie. Shepherd’s Pudding doesn’t seem to exist at the moment, but if someone invented it, that’s what it would be, even if it doesn’t resemble any other thing that has the word pudding in it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2024, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445/160 "2024-07-02T14:05:17Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > What I’m talking about is what I perceive to be a difference in the tendency to accept a new or outlying thing as being in a class or category or other group. There may be considerable bias or error in my observations, and this is not a criticism, but it seems like the tendency to declare something as, for example ‘not a pie because it does not conform in some way’ is more prevalent in the USA than the UK. I suspect you have this perception because you live in the UK and so are constantly exposed to the way ordinary people talk, but your exposure to Americans is mostly online, where people like to argue and overanalyze things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-full-range-of-things-called-pudding-in-the-usa/1003445.md?page=9)