# The fullness of the Godhead and salvation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595 "2003-06-09T04:36:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/181 "2003-06-16T00:49:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*[http://www.speakingastheoraclesofgod.com/anwsers/may\_women\_speak.htm](http://www.speakingastheoraclesofgod.com/anwsers/may_women_speak.htm) > > No, wasn’t really planning on responding. And there are no babies, either. I’m past that stage. See above link. Perceive it however you wish. See Galatians 3:27-28 \*\* So it’s OK to finesse the Pauline injunction against women teaching by exploring the original Greek and finding a non-literal interpretation? Yet you deplore the exact same exegetical techniques regarding the Pauline injunctions against homosexual love? Can you spell hypocrisy?You parse the Bible to say whatever you want it to say. When the Bible condemns your conduct, you find a non-literal interpretation that lets you off the hook. But when others seek to find the deeper, non-literal understanding of other Biblical commands, you hurl hellfire and condemnation. I’ll tell you, if I go to Hell, I’ll have the satisfaction of seeing you burning beside me, sister. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/182 "2003-06-16T00:57:36Z")
Gee, **His4ever** , can we say Pot-Kettle-Black? Also, wasn’t there some kind of rule, I dunno, that said something about not bearing false witnesses? Kinda like Jack Chick and YOU-the hateful lies you have spoken about the faith in which both **gobear** and I were raised? ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/183 "2003-06-16T01:00:07Z")
gobear: _Can you spell hypocrisy?You parse the Bible to say whatever you want it to say. When the Bible condemns your conduct, you find a non-literal interpretation that lets you off the hook._ I think you will find that a universal attribute of anyone who calls themselves a Chrisitain, including the liberal ones, which is why I’m giving your buddy Poly a hard time. Don’t let it happen to you. _I’ll tell you, if I go to Hell, I’ll have the satisfaction of seeing you burning beside me, sister._ What was it Mark Twain said? I’ll choose heaven for climate, hell for company. ---
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/184 "2003-06-16T01:07:34Z")
Ahh…good to be an atheist.We can call a duck a duck without having to twist and contort logic to try and make old books with scientific, historical, mathematical errancies and outright contradictions into something more than they are. The original followers of Yahweh were quite convinced that Heaven literally existed somewhere in the clouds and the Tower of Babel story was meant as a cautionary tale in case any human was ever so bold as to even try and reach the heavens.I don’t thing two and a half thousand years ago they were counting on jets, rockets and the like. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/185 "2003-06-16T01:10:52Z")
GodlessSkeptic _Ahh…good to be an atheist._ Yes it is. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/186 "2003-06-16T01:14:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > I think you will find that a universal attribute of anyone who calls themselves a Christian, including the liberal ones, which is why I’m giving your buddy **Poly** a hard time. Don’t let it happen to you. A. I’m a hardcore atheist, so you won’t find me defending any of the Bible’s teachings. B. **Poly** is no hypocrite. He has put a great deal of thought into his faith and does his level best to live as he believes his God would want him to. **His** on the other hand is a raging hypocrite, using one standard for herself and another for everyone else. Her faith is the faith of the ignorant, knowing nothing about other religions and other cultures except that because they aren’t hers, they must be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/187 "2003-06-16T01:40:27Z")
gobear: _A. I’m a hardcore atheist, so you won’t find me defending any of the Bible’s teachings._ Glad to hear that, for a minute I was thinking that Poly had made you one of the pod people. _B. Poly is no hypocrite. He has put a great deal of thought into his faith and does his level best to live as he believes his God would want him to. His on the other hand is a raging hypocrite, using one standard for herself and another for everyone else. Her faith is the faith of the ignorant, knowing nothing about other religions and other cultures except that because they aren’t hers, they must be wrong._ I don’t agree with you there. I think you are giving Poly too much credit and being too hard on His. I think they are both putting a lot of though into their faith, but look where it gets them. If I recall correctly when His was getting guff for her marriages she reported feeling a lot of guilt (needless IMO), which isn’t the sign of a raging hypocrite. I think they’re both fishing in an empty pond. It’s just that Poly is more benevolent to your way of life. As such I think that colors your judement even though the thought vs. hypocricy ratio is about equal, again IMO. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/188 "2003-06-16T01:57:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badchad \* > If I recall correctly when His was getting guff for her marriages she reported feeling a lot of guilt (needless IMO), which isn’t the sign of a raging hypocrite. I think they’re both fishing in an empty pond. It’s just that Poly is more benevolent to your way of life. As such I think that colors your judement even though the thought vs. hypocricy ratio is about equal, again IMO. Se, I don’tr recall **His** feeling any guilt over her violation of the bible’s teaching, which is why I think she’s a hypocrite. Sure, it’s nice that **Poly** is supportive of gay people, but we still disagree in some fundamental ways. The difference betwen **poly** and **His** is that **Poly** is as hard on himself as he is on anyone else. He really tries to empathize with others, even when they are vile to him in return. **His** , on the other hand, uses the Bible to exalt herself above others and place herself on a superior moral plane. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/189 "2003-06-16T02:12:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*The Christians I fellowship with would consider that first statement an amazing oddity coming from a Christian. Don’t trust the Bible? You keep amazing me, **Poly**. We put our trust in God AND in His word. I wouldn’t know about God and Christ if not for His word. We don’t believe it just “contains” His word, we believe it is His word. As usual, we’ll agree to disagree. Don’t think that’s going to change. \*\* I’m curious about this. You seem to be saying that one cannot experience God outside of Bible study. But if God is omnipotent then he can present himself to people in all sorts of ways all the time if he so chooses. He would be present in the opening of a flower at daybreak, the birth of a child, etc etc. It should be possible for anyone to have experience of God, even if they’ve never read the Bible. What about the followers of Moses; they never read the Bible, does that mean they didn’t really believe in God? Even Moses himself - hey, he may have _seen_ God, but he didn’t read the Bible, so it doesn’t count! What kind of omnipotent God can fit inside the pages of a book? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/190 "2003-06-16T05:51:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > \*\*To everyone. There is more to Christianity than just reading the bible and going to church and occassionally spurting out some prayer. Its a whole encompasing lifestyle. \*\* Would you please grant non-Christians the same grace? There’s more to being a non-Christian than simply rejecting the Christian Bible. As I explained in the beginning of this thread, people have many reasons for not practicing Christianity, yet Christians such as yourself seem to think that anyone who doesn’t needs to be proselytized. Yet you do so without ever trying to understand the reasons we **don’t** practice Christianity. You might want to go back and try to remember the **GOLDEN RULE** again. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/191 "2003-06-16T06:06:53Z")
gobear: _Se, I don’tr recall His feeling any guilt over her violation of the bible’s teaching,_ I went back and looked at the BBQ thread where she was accused of being a hypocrite over the marriage thing. She said she felt guilt over it and I believe she probably did. Again, I don’t think she should have. _The difference betwen poly and His is that Poly is as hard on himself as he is on anyone else. He really tries to empathize with others, even when they are vile to him in return. His, on the other hand, uses the Bible to exalt herself above others and place herself on a superior moral plane._ Again I disagree. I bet if you met His4ever in a social context and didn’t bring up any hot issues about sexuality you would probably think she is a really nice lady. My mom is a fundie and everyone thinks she is nice, which she is, but if you ask her where gays go she’d say to hell, cause god said so. If she were on this board she would be doing so out of a genuine desire to help people go to heaven, which I imagine is not too different from His4ever’s motivation. I’d sure that Polycarp is a nice guy too, but as much as he whines about the persecution he gets on this board, his abuse isn’t anything like what His4ever is regularly subjected to. That and I’m sure he feels a little exalted himself over all the sucking up he gets of those who want the sound bite version of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/192 "2003-06-16T06:49:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Freyer -As I explained in the beginning of this thread, people have many reasons for not practicing Christianity, yet Christians such as yourself seem to think that anyone who doesn’t needs to be proselytized. Yet you do so without ever trying to understand the reasons we don’t practice Christianity. Im sorry but, lol. I talk with my atheist, agnostic, or other relisious beleifs almost daily about why they believe what they believe, we have many vigerous debates dealing with the issue. Its fun. But please say i dont understand at least some of the reasons. Freyer some people do have communications outside of this message board. 🙂 I love you man. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/193 "2003-06-16T06:50:39Z")
Im sorry but, lol. I talk with my atheist, agnostic, or other relisious beleifs _friends_ almost daily …this would be alot easier if we could just edit our posts. ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/194 "2003-06-16T07:26:52Z")
Freyr- what are you reasons? I’d like to understand if you’re willing to elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/195 "2003-06-16T07:36:12Z")
> [@](#): > > badchad -Again I disagree. I bet if you met His4ever in a social context and didn’t bring up any hot issues about sexuality you would probably think she is a really nice lady. My mom is a fundie and everyone thinks she is nice, which she is, but if you ask her where gays go she’d say to hell, cause god said so. If she were on this board she would be doing so out of a genuine desire to help people go to heaven, which I imagine is not too different from His4ever’s motivation. badchad you are very observant. 🙂 good job. This is also the motivation for others on this board as well. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/196 "2003-06-16T08:19:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GodlessSkeptic \* > **Ahh…good to be an atheist.We can call a duck a duck without having to twist and contort logic to try and make old books with scientific, historical, mathematical errancies and outright contradictions into something more than they are.** Yes, isn’t it wonderful? No one can accuse an atheist of being a hypocrite for feeling smug and superior because hey, we never said people shouldn’t! Aren’t we great? This is somewhat akin to setting oneself no goals in order to avoid failing to achieve any. Technically it works in that you never fail, but what kind of victory is that? I’ll take someone trying to live to a higher personal standard anyday (regardless of what their motivation is) even if they sometimes fail at it, as long as they’re honestly _trying_. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/197 "2003-06-16T08:22:38Z")
Godhead? Wow, that sounds like the best head ever. Hope I can get me some of that. > [@](#): > > This is somewhat akin to setting oneself no goals in order to avoid failing to achieve any. Technically it works in that you never fail, but what kind of victory is that? I’ll take someone trying to live to a higher personal standard anyday (regardless of what their motivation is) even if they sometimes fail at it, as long as they’re honestly trying. Gee, shocking, sounds like another person saying you need religion to morals and ‘personal standards.’ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/198 "2003-06-16T09:40:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*Gee, shocking, sounds like another person saying you need religion to morals and ‘personal standards.’ :rolleyes: \*\* Nope. Just my way of saying that “I’m better than you because I’m an atheist/agnostic” is just as annoying as “I’m better than you because I’m a [religious person]”. One can certainly aspire to be a better person without having a devil poking you in the butt with a pitchfork; it’s the inevitable accusations of hypocrisy when [religious person] proves to have the usual human failings that annoy me. A little modesty never goes amiss, regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/199 "2003-06-16T09:49:21Z")
“…usual human failings that annoy me.” It’s called sin jr8, and we’re all stuck with it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/200 "2003-06-16T10:59:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reactor \* > \*\*"…usual human failings that annoy me." > > It’s called sin jr8, and we’re all stuck with it. \*\* Just to clarify my slightly confusing sentence structure above, what annoy me are the “inevitable accusations of hypocrisy”, not the “usual human failings” (although those can be annoying too). And you’re welcome to call them what you like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595.md?page=11)