# The fullness of the Godhead and salvation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595 "2003-06-09T04:36:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/261 "2003-06-17T16:44:37Z")
> [@](#): > > You don’t know your bible pal. There, I said it I don’t believe God is pro slavery, but he let it happen. And, he let killing happen, and lots of other nasty things. Read the cites I provided. The Bible doesn’t say God let those things happen; it says God commanded those things to happen. > [@](#): > > But I believe that God has the right to do what he wants, when he wants to, and how he wants to. So you’re saying you worship power divorced from ethics or morality. Your brand of Christianity is no different from devil worship. > [@](#): > > To understand how I can think this way, you need to read more about God. That’s why there are stories of events in the bible-- so we can understand. I need to read more about God? Hey, I provided cites for my position, and all you have done is handwaving. I’ll let the Dopers decide who needs to read more (and not just about God). ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/262 "2003-06-17T16:45:33Z")
Sorry **Ilsa\_Lund** but I really need some sleep, and reading a whole slab of bible with your notations hidden in between the verses just isn’t going to happen right now. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe never because that’s annoying. What are you trying to say with all that, anyway? Can’t you just say it? And btw, LOVE THE ALL CAPS ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/263 "2003-06-17T16:49:01Z")
**gobear** I agree, he commanded them. “Hey, I provided cites for my position, and all you have done is handwaving.” Don’t tell me you’re scared of reading Job? It explains God a little better than I can right now (even if I wanted to). ---
**Author:** ![I\_am\_who\_I\_am](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8e7dd6/32.png) [@I\_am\_who\_I\_am](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_am_who_I_am)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/264 "2003-06-17T16:56:42Z")
I don’t have anything to add to the convo, just posting to say thank you all for an entertaining read, and to say maybe you should go to sleep **reactor** , you’re getting your ass handed to you whether you realize it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/265 "2003-06-17T16:58:41Z")
My Apologies for the notation. I cut and pasted from an online bible and forgot to eliminate the annotation. The point was to illustrate that the Bible clearly states there is a firmament above the earth, and that God flooded the entire world not too long ago. These are the things you insisted the Bible did not say. Well, it does. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/266 "2003-06-17T17:05:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t tell me you’re scared of reading Job? It explains God a little better than I can right now (even if I wanted to). I’ve read Job, and the “where were you when I created the world” crap is no answer. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/267 "2003-06-17T17:09:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reactor \* > \*\ ***Diogenes…** > > “Do you believe in the literal Genesis story of creation? Do you think the sun revolves around the Earth? Do you think the sky is a solid dome? Do you believe that the whole Earth was flooded a few thousand years ago?” > > 1. Yes > 2. It doesn’t say that > 3. It doesn’t say that > 4. It doesn’t say that > > Do you believe Diogenes asks too many questions? > > 1. Yes\*\* 1.) Literal Genesis: How do you explain the [**fact**](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html#howold) that the Earth is four and a half billion years old, not the 6000 or so implied by Genesis? How do you explain the fact that there are two contradictory accounts of creation? How do you explain evolution? 2.) The sky is a dome: What do you think a “firmament” is? It’s from the Hebrew word, _raqiya_ which means an solid, expanded surface used for support, to wit, a dome. Genesis says that God inserted a solid dome to “separate” the waters above and below. It was believed by the ancients that the sky was a solid dome which held back water. Geneis also says that the the stars are stuck to this dome. 3.) The sun goes around the Earth: From **Joshua 10:12-15:** \*12 On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: “O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.” 13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on [2] its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a man. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel! 15 Then Joshua returned with all Israel to the camp at Gilgal.\* How could the sun be “stopped” if it wasn’t going in the first place? Even if you want to argue that God stopped the Earth, and it just _looked_ like he stopped the sun, you still have a problem with this line from Psalms: **Psalms 93:1** _The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved._ 4.) The whole Earth was flooded: **Genesis 7:17-24** _17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. [2] , [3] 21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark. 24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days._ > [@](#): > > \*\*“I won’t even go into all the self-contradictions and inconsistencies.” > > Feel free to email them to me.\*\* I’ll just post a couple of questions here. 1.) Which version of creation is correct? 2.) How did Judas die? > [@](#): > > \*\*“In the many instances where scripture is belied by fact, how do you reconcile it? Or do you just stick your fingers in your ears and say “la la la, I can’t hear you?”” > > Yes, that’s exactly what I do. I also have a big fuzzy pair of earmuffs and stick them over the top of my industrial strength earplugs. > > Not. > > I don’t do anything, because unlike you, I don’t believe in “…the many instances where scripture is belied by fact…” _dumb question meter blows up_\*\* I just pointed some out to you. Explain them away. > [@](#): > > \*\*“The virgin birth is explained by Islam…” > > Oh you mean the “It was a sign.” explanation. Oh yeah, good one that.\*\* It was sign that Jesus was a prophet. It’s a perfectly valid “explanation,” but even the lack of an explanation is not equivelent to 'error." “Catholics don’t call salvation a “mystery.”” And that’s funny, because I met one just yesterday who said to me “Salvation is a mystery.” and before that, a bunch of hard-core Catholics who (apart from kissing the Pope’s ring… you know, the one on his hand… these guys loved the Pope and knew the church’s doctrines back to front) said “Salvation is a mystery.” and then “We can’t understand it.” Why do you think I remember it?\*\* [/quote] Your friends were not citing Catholic doctrine. I don’t know what they meant, but they were probably referring to the question of _who_ gets saved, which in Catholicism happens by Grace and cannot be earned or known by actions or personal efforts. > [@](#): > > \*\*"…you are committing a grievous error in your idoltrous worship of Jesus. Aren’t you concerned about this?" > > Do I sound worried to you? I’m the one who thinks the Koran is a man-made doccument with pieces taken from the bible (which it is), remember?\*\* You _do_ sound worried when you can’t or won’t answer tough questions about your beliefs. BTW, the Bible is manmade document with pieces taken from Mesopotamian, Greek and Roman mythology. > [@](#): > > \*\*“BTW, your comment about the Bible not referring to the Koran is kind of silly since the Koran did not exist when the Bible was written.” > > Okay, so it was pointless to make it. So that changes… what?\*\* So if it was pointless to make it then why did you make it? > [@](#): > > \*\*“Answer this question clearly, please:” > > Are you ordering me to give you the answer? What’s so wrong with you that you can’t open up the bible and read for yourself? I don’t know about you, but I dislike fake questioning. I mean, I’ll answer the odd thing here and there, but you make it an artform, to ask a question with no genuine interest. > > And I’m sure you’re going to want to say “Answer the question!” (or something along those lines). If I can say “Read the bible, you’ll find the answer there.” then you can know I don’t need to justify my position on this forum now, or ever if I so choose. \*\* There was nothing “fake” about my question and the Bible will not tell me your personal interpretation of it. It’s very simple. Should Leviticus be followed or shouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/268 "2003-06-17T17:13:36Z")
Minor nitpick: > [@](#): > > Oh so I’m a bible expert now? I don’t remember saying this… but thanks! Yes, Hebrew for old. Greek for new. And that’s ancient Hebrew for the old. We only have the new Hebrew translated by the Jews, so… your point no longer makes sence. Uh – the Hebrew language is what (almost all) the Old Testament is written in (there are two short passages in Aramaic, FWIW). And it was never “translated by the Jews” into Hebrew – that’s what it was originally written in. I’m not sure where you’re going with this point – but that statement made absolutely no sense, and I figure you deserve the opportunity to clarify what it was you did mean. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/269 "2003-06-17T19:20:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Polycarp -their Inerrant Book Polycarp for the last time. What side are you on? Dude you say your a Christian yet you bash the bible. Im going to pull a badchad here and say that that sounds a little more than a little like hypocracy to me. Please once again explain this to me. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/270 "2003-06-17T19:25:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > \*\*Polycarp for the last time. What side are you on? Dude you say your a Christian yet you bash the bible. Im going to pull a badchad here and say that that sounds a little more than a little like hypocracy to me. Please once again explain this to me. \*\* That’s exactly what I’m trying to figure out, **Nomadic\_One.** It’s got me totally puzzled. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/271 "2003-06-17T19:29:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Then you need to keep your trap shut about other people’s relationships. From now on, every single time you make a comment about the “sinfulness” of homosexuality, I’m going to remind you that you, yourself, are currently living in sin. > > Every single time… \*\* Go right ahead, dearie. I don’t happen to share your opinion. If you can’t see the difference, can’t help that. Have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/272 "2003-06-17T19:30:35Z")
**Nomadic\_One** , Why is saying that the Bible is not inerrant eqivelent to “bashing” it. Christianity is not defined by mindless adherence to a book written by people. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/273 "2003-06-17T19:32:29Z")
> [@](#): > > This is why Catholics (on the whole) call salvation a ‘mystery’, because they don’t read their bible’s and understand the explanation for Jesus’ shedding of his blood, through Paul’s explanation in Hebrews. **Reactor** , the idea that Catholics don’t know their Bible is complete and utter bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/274 "2003-06-17T19:32:58Z")
Your interpretation obviously differs, and Polycarp is certainly capable of defending himself, but he has _never_ “bashed” the bible. Stop being so narrow minded in your view of what Christianity is. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/275 "2003-06-17T19:34:28Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t happen to share your opinion. It’s not “opinion.” It’s a direct violation of the Bible. How _dare_ you imply that your “opinion” is of more value than what God says. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/276 "2003-06-17T19:39:55Z")
> [@](#): > > photopat -Stop being so narrow minded in your view of what Christianity is. so now its only my brand of Christianity that is wrong? Can you please clarify this for me bud? Love you Photopat 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/277 "2003-06-17T19:48:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic > Then you need to keep your trap shut about other people’s relationships. From now on, every single time you make a comment about the “sinfulness” of homosexuality, I’m going to remind you that you, yourself, are currently living in sin. > > Every single time… I dont know the situation that His has nor do I know your relationship with her in which you know this. But wow for someone who like stuff in black and white and sounded pretty stright forward with his thoughts. Dont you think blackmail is a little low? ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/278 "2003-06-17T19:51:15Z")
Noooo, that’s not what I said. I was trying to suggest you simply open your mind to other possibilities, including the fact that none of it is right. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/279 "2003-06-17T19:52:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*That’s exactly what I’m trying to figure out, **Nomadic\_One.** > It’s got me totally puzzled. \*\* Disputing the inerrancy of the Bible is not bashing it. There other ways of approaching the Bible that allow it to be a product of human imagination and also God’s revelation of Himself to humanity. Take the story of Jonah. One need not believe that Jonah was an historical personage to accept the story’s message of God’s forgiveness. Even if Jonah is a work of fiction, that does not mean God can’t use it to reveal His loving nature through its message of repentance and forgiveness. After all, you believe that God speaks through the Jack Chick tracts, yet you don’t need to believe that Bob (the moustache guy) is a real person. God can also use metaphors and literary images to reveal His nature and intentions to humanity. Jesus is referred to as the Lamb of God in the NT, yet you don’t believe He walked on all fours, had fleece as white as snow, and said, “Baa” a lot, do you? Jesus referred to Himself as a vine and a door; was He a vine , a door? Or are those metaphors? If Jesus can use metaphors in the NT, then why can’t OT writers do the same? Does one needs to believe in a literal Adam and Eve to accept that God created the world? Can nnot the creation story be God working threough man’s limited understandiong, growing more and more distinct in His message the closer we come to the Incarnation? I’m not saying this is necessarily so, just trying to show that there are more ways to view the Bible’s message than you have thought of. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/280 "2003-06-17T19:55:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > \*\*so now its only my brand of Christianity that is wrong? Can you please clarify this for me bud? Love you Photopat 🙂 \*\* He’s saying that despite some Christian’s conceptions that theirs is the only valid view, the FACT remains that there are many differing views of culture, the Bible, interpretation of the Bible, etc. WITHIN Christendom. He’s asking you to recognize that. And may I make a request? Please stop with the “love you man” closings. I am sure you dont mean them this way, but they come across all smarmy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595.md?page=15)