# The fullness of the Godhead and salvation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595 "2003-06-09T04:36:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/301 "2003-06-18T03:42:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\ ***Reactor** , the idea that Catholics don’t know their Bible is complete and utter bullshit. \*\* Really? What’s your stance on all of this? Let me quote to you what a bunch of hard-core Catholics told me, “It’s true that you guys (meaning the protestants) read your bibles more… that’s something we want to get into more.” and I said “Sounds good to me.” And why don’t most (not all) read their bible? Because the Pope’s word overrides it, which is often in contrast to what the bible says. I’m guessing you’ll disagree with me on that, but… there are reasons I didn’t become a Catholic, and that’s one of them. And if you’re a Catholic, I have to ask, what’s with the language? ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/302 "2003-06-18T03:43:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I am who I am \* > \*\*I don’t have anything to add to the convo, just posting to say thank you all for an entertaining read, and to say maybe you should go to sleep **reactor** , you’re getting your ass handed to you whether you realize it or not. \*\* I’m not answering all of the dumb questions, if that’s what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/303 "2003-06-18T03:51:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Why don’t you quit patronising me. You first, Sparky. > [@](#): > > Let me quote to you what a bunch of hard-core Catholics told me I’m glad you had a discussion you can use to generalize an entire faith. Your anecdote does not, however, constitute proof of your assertions. > [@](#): > > And why don’t most (not all) read their bible? Because the Pope’s word overrides it, which is often in contrast to what the bible says. Horseshit. Or, more politely, cite please. > [@](#): > > I’m not answering all of the dumb questions, if that’s what you mean. No, just the ones you have pat answers to. Dude, acting like an jerk is not a great witness. Or do you really think flies are more attracted to vinegar than honey? ---
**Author:** ![ConnieS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@ConnieS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ConnieS)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/304 "2003-06-18T03:51:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reactor \* > **I argue fine. I don’t argue well late at night with 45 people all hounding me with the same basic questions every two seconds (that I know kids in my church have found the answer to just by reading the bible).** Good for them. Don’t assume that what works for the kids in your church works for everyone. How about taking a day or so to look over the questions posed to you in this thread and come up with a reasonable rebuttal of them? That seems to me like it should be plenty of time to demonstrate that you “argue fine.” > [@](#): > > **Why don’t you quit patronising me. I didn’t say anyone was poorly misguided or deluded. I believe you’re wrong. That’s it.** Telling someone that the antichrist has taken over their soul and prevented them from seeing the light _is_ calling them misguided or deluded. In fact, those are extremely kind terms for it. > [@](#): > > \*\* > People had all sorts of wacky beliefs back then, but God still used them, just like he uses people like you now. \*\* So how come their wacky beliefs about the sky being a dome can now be dismissed, but not their wacky beliefs about homosexuality being evil? ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/305 "2003-06-18T04:00:38Z")
**ConnieS** wrote > [@](#): > > Telling someone that the antichrist has taken over their soul and prevented them from seeing the light is calling them misguided or deluded. I think it’s kind of droll that someone’s trying to inform me that I’m being commanded by his monsters under the bed, though. Not the world’s most convincing debate tactic. It’s far from being the best bit of deranged thinking I’ve seen, though; my standards for wackiness were set by the guy who spent quite some time arguing that he was a figment of my imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/306 "2003-06-18T04:09:15Z")
> [@](#): > > And why don’t most (not all) read their bible? Because the Pope’s word overrides it, which is often in contrast to what the bible says. I’m guessing you’ll disagree with me on that, but… there are reasons I didn’t become a Catholic, and that’s one of them. Reactor, my grandchildren are Catholic. I am a Protestant. When I was young I was also mislead about Catholics not reading their Bibles. Not only do they read them, they have classes in Bible every day at school. No question is “dumb,” Reactor, especially in the fight against ignorance. > [@](#): > > And if you’re a Catholic, I have to ask, what’s with the language? Could you be more specific? What language? I will be happy to _try_ to answer any questions. ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/307 "2003-06-18T04:13:31Z")
I apologise to all if I’ve come across as cold and uncaring. Perhaps my posts do come across that way. Can you blame me though? I have _looks above_ six new points to cover after five minutes of being away from my computer. Can’t you people work some of these things yourselves? Please, don’t answer than one here. I didn’t ask because I want to know- I ask to provoke thought. “I’m glad you had a discussion you can use to generalize an entire faith.” From every Catholic source I’ve ever been so (and some of them have been high up in the church) they’ve all said that most Catholics don’t read their bibles on a fequent basis. What proof do you have to say otherwise, that will reverse my current understanding? “Horseshit. Or, more politely, cite please.” So why swear and then pretend to be nice? Sorry, I don’t have the time to discuss this one now. Please email me if you’d like to know more. Maybe the topic will be covered at a later date. “Dude, acting like an jerk is not a great witness. Or do you really think flies are more attracted to vinegar than honey?” So you swear and then lecture me on not being a great witness? Don’t you know what the bible says about course language? (and don’t ask me, go and read for yourself). Take the log out of your own eye first. “How about taking a day or so to look over the questions posed to you in this thread and come up with a reasonable rebuttal of them?” How about not, since when I post my rebuttal I’ll have the same problem all over again. “Telling someone that the antichrist has taken over their soul and prevented them from seeing the light is calling them misguided or deluded. In fact, those are extremely kind terms for it.” This isn’t even biblical. Do you even know what it is you’re talking about? “So how come their wacky beliefs about the sky being a dome can now be dismissed, but not their wacky beliefs about homosexuality being evil?” You’re like a guy who asks the question “Why don’t you, when you take a spark-plug out of a car, you don’t take the whole engine as well?” It doesn’t make much sence to the guy asking, but to the people who know how the cars works it’s blatantly obvious. Go and read the bible to find out. I don’t have time to spoon-feed the answer to you. If you’re too apathetic to do that, then that’s on your head. ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/308 "2003-06-18T04:18:07Z")
By language I meant swearing. Catholics do read their bibles, but not enough. If I ask them what Paul says about why Christ’s blood had to be spilled at the cross… well, I’ve never met a Catholic who knew. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/309 "2003-06-18T04:21:19Z")
Although I initially had hopes to the contrary, **Reactor** has turned out to be yet another Bible-beater who ignores cites that contradict his limited POV. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/310 "2003-06-18T04:24:17Z")
> [@](#): > > So you swear and then lecture me on not being a great witness? Absofuckinlutely, pal. It’s _your_ book that tells you to show love. It’s _your_ book that tells you to avoid coarse language (which does not include only cussin’, by the way, but also calling people names and using language as a bludgeon. . . but you knew that already, since you know so much about your book.) It’s \*your/i] book that tells you that a gentle answer turns away wrath. And it’s not me trying to proselytize _my_ religion here. Seriously, it’s becoming clear to me that you’re not interested in serving God. It looks like you’re only interested in serving yourself. ---
**Author:** ![ConnieS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@ConnieS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ConnieS)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/311 "2003-06-18T04:25:14Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re like a guy who asks the question “Why don’t you, when you take a spark-plug out of a car, you don’t take the whole engine as well?” It doesn’t make much sence to the guy asking, but to the people who know how the cars works it’s blatantly obvious. Go and read the bible to find out. I don’t have time to spoon-feed the answer to you. If you’re too apathetic to do that, then that’s on your head. Here’s a challenge for you. It ought to be interesting. Just once, answer a question posed to you in this thread without resorting to an analogy followed by an admonition to read the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/312 "2003-06-18T04:27:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reactor \* > \*\*I apologise to all if I’ve come across as cold and uncaring. Perhaps my posts do come across that way. Can you blame me though? I have _looks above_ six new points to cover after five minutes of being away from my computer. Can’t you people work some of these things yourselves? Please, don’t answer than one here. I didn’t ask because I want to know- I ask to provoke thought. > “I’m glad you had a discussion you can use to generalize an entire faith.” > > From every Catholic source I’ve ever been so (and some of them have been high up in the church) they’ve all said that most Catholics don’t read their bibles on a fequent basis. What proof do you have to say otherwise, that will reverse my current understanding? > “Horseshit. Or, more politely, cite please.” > > So why swear and then pretend to be nice? Sorry, I don’t have the time to discuss this one now. Please email me if you’d like to know more. Maybe the topic will be covered at a later date. > “Dude, acting like an jerk is not a great witness. Or do you really think flies are more attracted to vinegar than honey?” > > So you swear and then lecture me on not being a great witness? Don’t you know what the bible says about course language? (and don’t ask me, go and read for yourself). Take the log out of your own eye first. > “How about taking a day or so to look over the questions posed to you in this thread and come up with a reasonable rebuttal of them?” > > How about not, since when I post my rebuttal I’ll have the same problem all over again. > “Telling someone that the antichrist has taken over their soul and prevented them from seeing the light is calling them misguided or deluded. In fact, those are extremely kind terms for it.” > > This isn’t even biblical. Do you even know what it is you’re talking about? > “So how come their wacky beliefs about the sky being a dome can now be dismissed, but not their wacky beliefs about homosexuality being evil?” > > You’re like a guy who asks the question “Why don’t you, when you take a spark-plug out of a car, you don’t take the whole engine as well?” It doesn’t make much sence to the guy asking, but to the people who know how the cars works it’s blatantly obvious. Go and read the bible to find out. I don’t have time to spoon-feed the answer to you. If you’re too apathetic to do that, then that’s on your head. \*\* This is an example of the sort of snottiness that people are complaining about – you’re being **asked** to explain the Gospel, and you’re telling them, “Well, go read the Bible!” What great evangelism! And saying that someone is moved by the spirit of antichrist is very much an insult in my book, thank you. I’ve given my views, and reasons why I hold them, on most of the issues addressed here, over the past couple of years. Get up, walk away from your computer, don’t get frustrated at the number of people arguing with you (the “in” term for it is a “pile-on” and it’s something we’re not proud of ourselves for) – and that includes my posts if they’ve angered you – draw a few deep breaths, take a drink of whatever soothes your spirits and calms you down, and come back and answer in a manner that’s “wise as serpents and gentle as doves” We will probably end up disagreeing on a number of questions about the Bible and about Christian morality – but I know your heart is in the right place, and I hope you feel that mine is. Now it’s time to engage brain and heart together and start treating people like God said to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/313 "2003-06-18T04:33:36Z")
Here’s a question for you, **Reactor** -Why do all the Catholics you supposedly converse with sound like two dimensional characters out of a Jack Chick tract? Here’s another question for you-When you finally meet up with your Maker and He asks you why you went out of your way to drive people away from Him, how will you answer? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/314 "2003-06-18T04:35:11Z")
> [@](#): > > (the “in” term for it is a “pile-on” and it’s something we’re not proud of ourselves for) Dammit, Poly. Yes. I’ve contributed to a pile-on, deliberately, out of anger and frustration. I shouldn’t have. I apologize for doing so, **Reactor**. There was no need for me to contribute. ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/315 "2003-06-18T04:41:26Z")
“Seriously, it’s becoming clear to me that you’re not interested in serving God.” _runs and hides under a rock_ Oh no! It’s clear to andros! Woe is me, and all of christendom! **ConnieS** I only mention checking in the bible because it’ll save me a whole heap of effort, and it’s the best way to seperate the people who ask but don’t actually want to know, and those that do. Everyone around here seems completely scared of doing any real followup, so… it’s becomming an increasingly pointless thing for me to say. I’d be happy to answer one question to the best of my ability, proving all of the knowledgeless athiest groupies don’t try and bog me down with menial posts afterward. That’d be nice, but… 😉 Please, ask away (and btw, I’ve already done this a couple of times before). I’m only going to answer you ConnieS, so give me your best question. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/316 "2003-06-18T04:44:53Z")
**Reactor** , most of us _have_ read the Bible, and are merely trying to figure out your particular interpretation of it. ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/317 "2003-06-18T04:49:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*Dammit, Poly. > > Yes. > > I’ve contributed to a pile-on, deliberately, out of anger and frustration. I shouldn’t have. > > I apologize for doing so, **Reactor**. There was no need for me to contribute. \*\* I appreciate that. I did enjoy your passion, though, and engaging you with it 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/318 "2003-06-18T04:57:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\ ***Reactor** , most of us _have_ read the Bible, and are merely trying to figure out your particular interpretation of it. \*\* Some pople aren’t. My interpretation is pretty basic. What it says is what I go with. But, you need to have a full understanding of all biblical theology, and not let the pendulum swing too far in any one direction. This happens to me from time to time, but I’m getting better at putting my finger on what’s important. I believe all of the bible because like Abraham, I hope my belief in it will be credited to me as righteousness, no matter how much of it may be wrong (and I don’t yet believe any of it is, despite some people’s theories). Christians are a people who are called to live by faith, and although I realise this doesn’t sit well with the average thinker, it’s God’s way, and it makes perfect sense to me. Most people on here know the scriptures, but they don’t know why they’re in the bible. They’re all in there for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/319 "2003-06-18T04:57:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\ ***Reactor** , if you can tell us which parts of the Bible you believe in, it would help us understand where you come from. > Do you follow the old and new testament, or just the new? > Do you believe that the Bible is 100% accurate? Do you believe that some of the Biblical stories are alegories, or do you believe that everything in the Bible happened just as it was written down? > Do you believe that the version of the Bible you read from is the only accurate version, and if so, which version is it? \*\* Here are some more questions that might help us understand your position. I know I’ve asked them before, but I really believe the answers might shed some light. ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/320 "2003-06-18T05:05:54Z")
Think I aswered all of these above, except for… “Do you believe that the version of the Bible you read from is the only accurate version, and if so, which version is it?” I read from the NIV, but I also have the King Jimmy, The New American Standard, the New Living, an NIV bible with some Hewbrew translated in it, and a Greek-english Interlinear. Pretty much standard issue, but I’ll also go back to the greek now and then. I don’t look too much into the hebrew because we don’t have the ancient available. Maybe this one too… “Do you follow the old and new testament, or just the new?” Both. And this 🙂 “Do you believe that some of the Biblical stories are alegories…?” There’s room for this understanding, but I personally choose to believe it all (see reason above). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595.md?page=17)