# The fullness of the Godhead and salvation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595 "2003-06-09T04:36:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/21 "2003-06-09T21:04:31Z")
GodlessSkeptic, can I ask is there anything that in my little, 17 year old power, that I can do to convince you that God exists. I am truely sorry if not. Although I still love everyone. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/22 "2003-06-09T21:17:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > \*\*GodlessSkeptic, can I ask is there anything that in my little, 17 year old power, that I can do to convince you that God exists. I am truely sorry if not. Although I still love everyone. \*\* You should never need to, IMHO. The only method to properly witness, in my opinion, is by setting an example for others throught the day-day conduct of your life. Everything else is just words. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/23 "2003-06-09T21:19:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > **GodlessSkeptic, can I ask is there anything that in my little, 17 year old power, that I can do to convince you that God exists.** I don’t intend to answer for **GodlessSceptic** , but believe me, if there was something that you could do to convince him, it would already have been done by someone else. My whole take on religion is that the people who believe it ultimately do so based on faith, and those who do not are people who tend not to believe things that do not have strong supporting evidence, which the existance of God does not. Also, it may help you to better understand the mind of the nonbeliever if you realize that the bible doesn’t count as good evidence for God’s existance, since the bible is only believed to be infallible and completely true by people who _already_ believe that it is true. > [@](#): > > **I am truely sorry if not.** You know, there was a time when I was truly sorry for the people who _did_ believe in religion. These days, though I do feel like they are still deluding themselves by believing in fantasies, I don’t really feel sorry for them if they’re truly happy to believe what they believe. ---
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/24 "2003-06-09T22:27:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > \*\*GodlessSkeptic, can I ask is there anything that in my little, 17 year old power, that I can do to convince you that God exists. I am truely sorry if not. Although I still love everyone. \*\* Sure there is.If a such thing as a god does in fact exist then it should be relatively easy for you to convince me.Show me ANYTHING that rationally justifies the existential claim of God’s existence.SHow me how YOUR god is anymore warranted than the 4,999 other gods that you and I BOTH do not believe in. It is not a matter of me being closed to the possibility of God’s existence.However I am not going to assent to the claim solely because you have a strong desire for me to do so anymore than I am going to assent to a claim that Sasquatch exists simply because **I** have a strong desire to believe such. To feel sorry for me simply because I lack your convictions is no better than feeling sorry for a black man for not being white.I can no more choose what I believe or do not believe than a non-white person can choose his or her race(advancements in genetic science aside of course). ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/25 "2003-06-09T23:10:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > **GodlessSkeptic, can I ask is there anything that in my little, 17 year old power, that I can do to convince you that God exists. I am truely sorry if not. Although I still love everyone.** It is my opinion that witnessing is not something you should try to force at other people. Obviously, this forum is designed for this, but I really don’t think anyone is ever going to convince anyone of anything here. The best way to witness is simply to live as God asks you. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/26 "2003-06-09T23:19:15Z")
Well GodlessSkeptic, there are numerous occurances that have solidified my faith in God. One example – My pastor in about circa 1975 had to what started as a bladder infection and it spread into a much worse infections that eventually spread to most of his body, it got so bad at one time they were literally taking cup fulls of puss from the wounds. It was almost hopeless and most said he would die. But thankfully his wife and his friends beleived in the power of prayer and God. Today you will find him a healthy, strong preacher who is doing well. This is just one of the cases of God’s power in cases where it seemed hopeless, there are also many miracles that can only be explained by the power of God through prayer. I hope this helps some. 🙂 I love you bro ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/27 "2003-06-09T23:34:13Z")
I realize that your post wasn’t directed at me, but I’m in the mood to debate for some reason 😃 > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > **But thankfully his wife and his friends beleived in the power of prayer and God. Today you will find him a healthy, strong preacher who is doing well.** This is what is referred to as anecdotal evidence, and it carries very little weight. I could just as easilly state that the Invisible Pink Unicorn intercepts prayers to all false gods, and chooses to answer some of them just to screw around with people’s heads. This explaination is _just_ as valid as yours. > [@](#): > > \*\*there are also many miracles that can only be explained by the power of God through prayer. \*\* Why not explain these things with the power of the Invisible Pink Unicorn through prayer? Or Allah? Or Thor? Or Zeus? Or Bob? Or, what is more likely, a natural process that we don’t fully understand yet? After all, lightning used to be a miracle that could only be explained through the power of a god, too, but now we know better. My question is, why do you assume that things you can’t explain are the work of God? ---
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/28 "2003-06-09T23:41:01Z")
Waht **Joe Random** said. I have no way to scrutinise your anecdote and when you presnet such things as ‘evidence’ I am put in the unenviable position of either taking you at your word that such a thing happened, just as you have described it or saying that you are deliusional or a liar.Not fair to YOU or I. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/29 "2003-06-09T23:51:54Z")
You have it all wrong, **GodlessSkeptic**. Clearly, the pastor was saved by the power of prayer. Unlike [this poor fellow, taken by cancer at age 33,](http://www.startribune.com/stories/614/3770361.html) (to pick one of, oh, a billion or so examples) whose loved ones obviously did a poor job of praying for him. ---
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/30 "2003-06-10T00:02:40Z")
Good point Manhattan.The citing of alleged “miracles” as evidence of God has always befuddled me.It seems to me that a **miracle** would not be 20 people surviving a plane crash where all were likely to die, but rather that no plane crashes ever occured in the first place!If no ministers ever got cancer THAT would be a miracle…not the fact that a small percentage of cancer victims experience remission!? ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/31 "2003-06-10T00:15:55Z")
Im sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/32 "2003-06-10T00:27:55Z")
\*note that i am not apolagizing about my faith, i am telling of my sorrow about something. 🙂 Love you guys. If you have any more questions please feel free to ask. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/33 "2003-06-10T00:27:59Z")
> [@](#): > > DEU 14:16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan… Damn! I am so terribly fond of roast black swan. GodlessSkeptic: > [@](#): > > I was refering specifically to “witnessing” which is, by and large, NOT done out of genuine concern, but out of egotism. I appreciate the qualifier “by and large,” but how do you know what is in the mind of another person? None of us knows for certain the motives of another – unless we consider that _everything_ is based in the ego. (I can buy that.) Nomadic\_One, are you saying that all baptisms should be just like the ones in the Bible? If so, shouldn’t they all be in natural bodies of water as opposed to man-man tanks? Or we could carry it further and require that all Christians must be baptized in the Holy Land or in the same body of water as Jesus. It is my opinion that God isn’t really all that much concerned with the details. (I was both christened in the name of the Trinity and baptised with the Spirit in another church.) You’ve been given good advice by those who have said or suggested that the best witnessing is done through example. I am a Christian and even my eyes start to glaze over when someone quotes Scripture. If people don’t believe in the Scripture in the first place, verses are not likely to have much effect. Many years ago when I was a little more fundamental in my beliefs, someone said, “Your God is too small.” I didn’t understand it then but I do now. I believe that God does not nitpick nor comform to our limited ideas. I wish you well. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/34 "2003-06-10T00:28:02Z")
If there isn’t a meta-thread somewhere for this sort of thing, there really ought to be: > [@](#): > > Believer: I believe X. According to X, bad things will happen to people who don’t believe X. > > Skeptic: Prove it. > > Believer: The Book of X says so. The Book of X is right. > > Skeptic: :rolleyes: > > Apostate: I used to believe X, but it ruined my life. Things got better when I stopped believing X. > > Believer: You must not have done it right, then. > > Heathen: I believe Y, and am perfectly happy doing so. I have just as much proof for Y as you do for X. > > Believer: The Book of X says otherwise. The Book of X is right. > > Heathen: :rolleyes: > > Believer: No, really, I’m much happier since I started believing X. > > Drive-by Poster: How nice for you. > > Believer: \ No offense, **Nomadic\_One** , but it **is** possible to read the Bible, to try with all one’s might to believe it, and still not have faith. It is possible to belong to another religion and be as sincere in one’s faith as you obviously are in yours. It is possible to be a good, kind, loving person without having any religious beliefs at all. You’re clearly in a good place with your faith at the moment, and you want everyone else to feel like that too. That sentiment is a credit to you, but glosses over the fact that other people aren’t coming from the same place you are (background-wise), and the place you’re in may not be a good place for them. This is a hard thing to accept. The best advice I can give you (and I know you didn’t ask for any, but…) is the same advice **JustPlainBryan** already gave you. Throwing words at people will drive them away, and reciting the Bible to them is to act like they’re ignorant children. Instead, just be the best, kindest, most loving person you can be every day, and people will come to you of their own volition. It’s a **lot** harder than posting Bible excerpts, but who said faith was easy? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/35 "2003-06-10T00:40:51Z")
> [@](#): > > jr8 - The best advice I can give you (and I know you didn’t ask for any, but…) is the same advice JustPlainBryan already gave you. Throwing words at people will drive them away, and reciting the Bible to them is to act like they’re ignorant children. Instead, just be the best, kindest, most loving person you can be every day, and people will come to you of their own volition. It’s a lot harder than posting Bible excerpts, but who said faith was easy? thank you for the advice and normally i would agree with you that living a Godly, holy life is one of the best examples of witness. But there are alot of people who read this board and cant see me live my life. Should i just pass up the oppurtinity to witness because i cant show people how i live my life? thank you for your input > [@](#): > > Zoe -You’ve been given good advice by those who have said or suggested that the best witnessing is done through example. I am a Christian and even my eyes start to glaze over when someone quotes Scripture. If people don’t believe in the Scripture in the first place, verses are not likely to have much effect. Zoe forgive me if im being ignorant but how are you a christian if you dont beleive in the Scripture? Isnt that the basis of our faith? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/36 "2003-06-10T01:08:01Z")
Pretty much any point I could come up with seems to be covered, but, Nomadic\_One, since you floated an analogy … > [@](#): > > **…if you saw someone that was trapped on a rail-road track and you could save their life by helping them free, would you? Well this is how I feel about witnessing…** While that, in your mind, is a noble deed, when you mistake my Barca-Lounger for railroad tracks, it’s not going to endear me to you when you yank me off of it. See what I mean? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/37 "2003-06-10T01:13:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > thank you for the advice and normally i would agree with you that living a Godly, holy life is one of the best examples of witness. But there are alot of people who read this board and cant see me live my life. Should i just pass up the oppurtinity to witness because i cant show people how i live my life? thank you for your input It’s how you conduct yourself online that demonstrates to people what sort of a person you are. I confess to occasional irritation with people who seem prone to argue against things I feel strongly about, but I _try_ to swallow my bile and answer them as irenically as possible. It usually has very positive results. (BTW, I disagree with you about the conceptualization of the Trinity as described in your OP, or what I think I understand you to be saying – but I didn’t see it as something we need to be arguing about on this board right now.) > [@](#): > > Zoe forgive me if im being ignorant but how are you a christian if you dont beleive in the Scripture? Isnt that the basis of our faith? Two points to be made w/r/t what **Zoe** said and your response: 1. **Zoe** ’s point was not whether she believed in Scripture but that the quotation of a Scripture passage would not be meaningful to those who do not believe in it. I can vouch for the meaningfulness of this: prior to my conversion experience, I could argue with the best of them and prooftext as well as anyone, but the verses did not mean anything in terms of “heart knowledge” – they did not impact how I lived my life; they were only part of an intellectual “game,” no different than arguing about taxonomy or constitutional law. The words of Scripture speak to the heart of active Christians – but they cannot be expected to usually and often do so to those who are not actively following Jesus. Hence discussions based on prooftexting are usually worthless outside a Christian context. 1. The basis of our faith is placing one’s faith – one’s trust – in God and in the saving grace of Jesus’s Christ’s Atonement. The Bible reports the background on that; it is not itself the basis of our faith. This may sound like semantic nitpickery, but it is not – the key point is in following Christ, not in following the Bible. And that makes all the difference. ---
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/38 "2003-06-10T01:27:47Z")
> [@](#): > > **I appreciate the qualifier “by and large,” but how do you know what is in the mind of another person? None of us knows for certain the motives of another – unless we consider that everything is based in the ego. (I can buy that.)** Indeed these things are based in ego, for good or bad.Even altruism is not truly altruistic.I can elaborate if you are unsure of my meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/39 "2003-06-10T01:32:12Z")
> [@](#): > > -Polycarp This may sound like semantic nitpickery, but it is not – the key point is in following Christ, not in following the Bible. And that makes all the difference. Polycarp…if one does not look at the bible as a reference to follow for their faith how can one follow Christ. One would never be sure they were following correctly. ---
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/40 "2003-06-10T01:37:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > \*\*Polycarp…if one does not look at the bible as a reference to follow for their faith how can one follow Christ. One would never be sure they were following correctly. \*\* You still cannot be sure of such even with the Bible because it is entirely subject to interpretation.That is why Jerry Falwell, John Hagee adn other bigots will read the Bible and have an entirely different take on God than the Rev. Barry Lynn or Jesse Jackson. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595.md?page=3)