# The fullness of the Godhead and salvation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595 "2003-06-09T04:36:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/61 "2003-06-10T21:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by GodlessSkeptic_ > **The problem is that these same bizarre rationalizations and impossible twists of logic can be used to “explain away” errancies in ANY scripture/holy book.** > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by richardc_ > \*\*I am also wondering which apologists you are reading? \*\* ANY of them! Strobel, McDowell, Yancey - take your pick. They are masters of obfuscation and avoiding the real question. They play to the converted by offering up weak arguments that sound good on the surface but fall apart under intense scutiny. Tell me - who is your favorite Christian apologist? ---
**Author:** ![richardc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@richardc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richardc)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/62 "2003-06-11T00:22:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mars Horizon \* > \*\*ANY of them! > Strobel, McDowell, Yancey - take your pick. They are masters of obfuscation and avoiding the real question. They play to the converted by offering up weak arguments that sound good on the surface but fall apart under intense scutiny. > > Tell me - who is your favorite Christian apologist? \*\* To be honest, I haven’t read McDowell or Yancey. I did read parts of a Strobel book once. It wasn’t on apologetics, though. My favorite Christian apologist is Glenn Miller. He, of course, runs [http://www.christian-thinktank.com](http://christian-thinktank.com) ---
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/63 "2003-06-11T01:02:52Z")
It doesn’t matter what apologists I have read.The fact remains that all of the following views have been supported by Biblical interpretation: Pro-choice, pro-life, pro-slavery, abolitionism, racism, tolerance, pro-capital punishment, anti-capital punishment, etc. You name the worldview or position, no matter how contradictory to your own take on things and I can find the biblical support for it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/64 "2003-06-11T01:41:21Z")
Ya know what, **Nomadic\_One**? I’m not Polycarp, and I cannot speak with his mouth. But I know him fairly well. And **badchad** ’s cowardly and unnecessary sniping to the contrary, he is not a hypocrite. Honestly, I say them’s fightin words, but I’m not certain you meant it in as negative way as it came across. See, here’s the deal: he sees the Bible as the word of God. But he realizes that the Christ was the Word of God. Or another way, he worships the Christ as his savior, not a book. He does not preach one thing and say another. That’s hypocrisy. And he does not lie. (Now, this gets back to **goboy** ’s point. I know Poly is not a hypocrite and I know he is not a liar because I know him. I assume you are not a liar, because you’ve given me no reason to think you are, but I am much more likely to listen politely to his witnessing than a stranger’s.) ---
**Author:** ![richardc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@richardc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richardc)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/65 "2003-06-11T03:05:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GodlessSkeptic \* > \*\*It doesn’t matter what apologists I have read.The fact remains that all of the following views have been supported by Biblical interpretation: > > Pro-choice, pro-life, pro-slavery, abolitionism, racism, tolerance, pro-capital punishment, anti-capital punishment, etc. > > You name the worldview or position, no matter how contradictory to your own take on things and I can find the biblical support for it. \*\* I think that it does matter. You will encounter good apologetics and bad apologetics. I’m not sure how this ties into Biblical interpretation, though. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/66 "2003-06-11T05:04:26Z")
But can you give us a definition of “Good Apologetics” that doesn’t boil down to “Someone who tells me what I want to hear.”? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/67 "2003-06-11T05:12:13Z")
How can Glenn Miller run a think tank? He’s dead. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/68 "2003-06-11T05:22:07Z")
> [@](#): > > -Jr8 Nomad, I’m not speaking for Polycarp but, * * * > [@](#): > > -photopat Ya know what, Nomadic\_One? I’m not Polycarp, and I cannot speak with his mouth. > > But lol people let the man defend himself im sure hes perfectly capable of doing so. I was just looking for **his** interpretation on what he ment. thank you and God bless. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/69 "2003-06-11T05:36:46Z")
Im sorry **jr8** i meant to say photopat and andros for those two quotes im sorry for misquoting you. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/70 "2003-06-11T05:48:01Z")
You know, if someone were to come on this board and say that unless someone was absolutely perfect in every way, he or she was totally and indefensibly evil, I think people of all beliefs and political persuasions would unite in calling that idea ridiculous. What I said, **nomadic one** , was in no way hypocritical. I love the Bible, I read it fairly regularly, I study it as I have time. I rely on it for most of the information about my Lord. But I do not think it is totally without error, and God as known in Christ, not the Bible, is what my faith is founded on. That concept doesn’t seem that hard to grasp. But I seem to have a truly terrible time bringing it across. Oh, and **badchad**? I’m a _Christian humanist_ – I’ve never denied that; I glory in it. Because that’s what Jesus told us to do. It’s only the Neo-Pharisees (sorry, Chaim!) who would make Him over into an agent for their bigotry who think that “humanism” is something evil. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/71 "2003-06-11T06:01:35Z")
thank you for clearing some of that up polycarp. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/72 "2003-06-11T07:25:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **I love the Bible, I read it fairly regularly, I study it as I have time. I rely on it for most of the information about my Lord. But I do not think it is totally without error, and God as known in Christ, not the Bible, is what my faith is founded on.** Like the difference between a biography about a particular person and the actual, living person himself? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/73 "2003-06-11T11:02:52Z")
Or, to add another interpretation to the pile: there are two types of people who have studied the teachings of Christ in depth. The first kind you know because they can recite them verbatim from memory. The second kind never have to mention them at all. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/74 "2003-06-11T14:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\*Like the difference between a biography about a particular person and the actual, living person himself? 😉 \*\* Yep. "You mean you don’t think that Snorri wrote totally without error? Why, you’re no better than, than, than a Christian! :eek: " ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/75 "2003-06-11T14:40:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*But can you give us a definition of “Good Apologetics” that doesn’t boil down to “Someone who tells me what I want to hear.”? \*\* How about “a work that attempts to utilize all relevant knowledge and theory regarding the topic under discussion to arrive at a defensible explanation of why a given doctrine is accepted”? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/76 "2003-06-11T14:52:32Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by andros \* > [@](#): > > (Now, this gets back to **goboy** ’s point. Note the name on the left. Hint: It’s **Gobear** , not **Goboy**. > [@](#): > > I know Poly is not a hypocrite and I know he is not a liar because I know him. I assume you are not a liar, because you’ve given me no reason to think you are, but I am much more likely to listen politely to his witnessing than a stranger’s.) My basic point is that witnessing, like any other persuasion to change one’s life, is not going to be accomplished by some stranger telling me what’s wrong with my life and what I need when he doesn’t even know me. Witnessing is not a one size fits all proposition; you need to get to know people, to make it personal. I don’t know **Nomadic\_One** , so I have no reason to listen when he says he knows I need to convert to his religion **Polycarp** has put the time in, he’s gotten to know me, and he’s shown himself to be a sharp debater and a good man. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/77 "2003-06-11T15:09:10Z")
Dammit, sorry. Slip of the keyboard. No offense meant, of course. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/78 "2003-06-11T17:36:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > …In Christianity there is a belief by many religions that is biblically inaccurate, yet it is continued to be taught and accepted as the truth. That is the belief that there is a triune God in the separate form of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. What I know to be true is that Jesus is God as well as the having the Holy Spirit living within us. > > First of all we know there to be one true God, as found in Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.” This is the basis of faith on a one true God. Another verse is Isaiah 44:24 “I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself” We also know that God is a spirit, John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. In the Old Testament God showed himself in many forms, the burning bush, a cloud pillar, angels, etc. But Jesus himself said that you cannot see a spirit, Luke 24:39 “A spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.” God had shown himself in many forms but no one had ever seen the embodiment of God. To be able for God to finally show Himself to His people He took upon flesh. God finally became visible, glorious day. Isaiah had prophesied this day long before, Isaiah 42:13 “The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man.” Jesus is God manifested in the flesh. Philip asked Jesus to “show us the Father”. Jesus replied, John 14:8, 9 "Have I been so long time with you and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” Paul saw this and communicated the mystery to Timothy: I Timothy 3:16, “God was manifest in the flesh” and to the Colossians, Colossians 2:9 “In Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead (Greek: Deity) bodily.” Even the name Emanuel means God with us as prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23). In Colossians 1:19 one can see that, “It pleased the Father that in him (the Son) should all (the Father’s) fullness dwell.” That is why John said “the Word was made flesh”. Jesus cannot be a co-equal to God, nor can He be a double or duplicate deity. Jesus is God, the spirit, manifested in the flesh as a man. God never invented or created a God the Son. The Son of God was “made of a woman”, as seen in Galatians 4:4, and was “conceived…of the Holy Spirit” in Matthew 1:20. That shows the Holy Spirit is actually God, since John said the Son of Man is the “only begotten of the Father” (John 1:14). > Jesus=God. > > …This tripartite formula was an invention that was post-apostolic and well to be blunt, inaccurate. The concept of the trinity has been under review for me in the past year. The three in one idea has been around for two thousand years. But I believe that concept to be incomplete particularly for the future if we are to accept the following words > [@](#): > > _1 Corinthians 15:27,28_ > For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be **all in all.** So where we once may have had scriptural evidence suggesting that three entities qualify as God, Paul says that God will be all in all. I realize that could be hard to imagine, but I believe that we will all be God in time. To further clarify my “understanding” lets look at the following passage > [@](#): > > _Romans 11:36_ > For from him and through him and to him are all things. > To him be the glory forever! Amen. I think that God somehow disassociated himself when He created the universe in order to achieve something better in the future when he reconciles us all back. Much of your scriptural presentations suggest how difficult it is to pin down God as a specific “form”. It isn’t my intention to convert anyone to this idea, but it does excite me and reinforces my belief that all of us are destined for “salvation” . Now that I’ve addressed the OP , I’ll address **Joe Random** > [@](#): > > So, who is Joseph’s father, Jacob or Heli? It can’t be both, so one of those two quotes must be wrong. Or how about : > quote: Why can’t Heli be Joseph’s mother? Or why can’t Heli be Jacob’s second name? > [@](#): > > Surprise! Bats aren’t birds; they’re not even close. So now we have a factual error. Maybe that was just a grouping of all the flying animals for simplicity’s sake, you say? Yes > [@](#): > > Hares don’t chew cud. Do you think its possible that the original translation pertains to animals that like to chew their food a lot. > [@](#): > > But locusts amd beetles don’t have four feet! Yet another error. But they do! They also have two extra appendages that can be classified as arms for grasping. My point in rebuttal to **Joe Random** is not to refute the premise that there are some factual errors in the bible, but rather to minimize their significance. The words of the scribes were never intended to be scientific literature. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/79 "2003-06-11T17:52:40Z")
:rolleyes: Well, which is it? NO factual errors, or many of “little signifcance?” If you want bigger significant errors, check the SAB for many: [www.skepticsannotatedbible.com](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com). Complete KJV 1611 for ya! The words weren’t Science lit, but the inspired word of God ought to be fairly factual. Pi is not 3. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595/80 "2003-06-11T18:57:07Z")
Well in that case **Ilsa** , pi is not 3.1. Or for that matter 3.14. Or 3.142. Or 3.1416. Shall I continue? And how do you describe 3.14 in the language of the time of original writing and prior to the decimal system? welcome to the board 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fullness-of-the-godhead-and-salvation/180595.md?page=5)