What’s reckless, irresponsible behavior is dumping excess nitrogen into the water.
If they’ve got dangerous levels of nitrogen pollution, that is flat out proof that excess nitrogen is being used. Do you think farmers are immune to the “more is better” mentality? Do you think fertilizer salespeople, unlike salespeople in every other area, never recommend what will fill their pocketbooks instead of what’s actually necessary for the customer?
I am a farmer. And I know lots of farmers who have their soil tests done, and their fertilizer recommendations worked out, by the company that sells them fertilizer. It’s very common behavior.
Possibly because Sam_Stone seems to think that veal is lamb. Veal is the meat from very young calves. Different species.
Not sure who you aimed that at; but to clarify, it was Sam_Stone who first, and repeatedly, used the word. Apparently their vast knowledge of agriculture missed that bit.
So you’re making a claim, but you’re unwilling to support it.
Why should anyone accept that claim, when effectively no cite has been given for it, and the claim is so vague that it doesn’t even have a time period attached?
Why are you so sure it’s correct, when you’ve read it in only one place, which you can’t readily find at the moment?
It doesn’t for two reasons. One is the reason you’re giving, that large enterprises crowd out both the small ones and the ease of adjustment to differences in demand; and the other is that the work force isn’t free to move. A truly free market would allow workers to easily locate wherever in the world the best wages and working conditions were offered.
And again, that still wouldn’t be a free market as long as people are forbidden to cross borders looking for a better deal.
Except that what happens in any economy involving humans is directly affected by what people think. If most people think there isn’t any need to remove most of their hair, or to wash the remaining hair more than once a week, there won’t be much demand for hair removal products and services and there won’t be as much demand for shampoo. If advertising of various sorts can convince them otherwise, look, there’s a huge market!
@Little_Nemo: I wanted a cite readily available online, since that’s where we’re having this discussion. Or, failing that, at least a direct quote for what years this is supposed to apply to, so that I could, if I wanted, attempt to look up various opinions as to the cause. Or failing that, or better yet along with it, the specific page numbers in the book you cited, so that I could at least attempt to find out whether that piece of it is available online; though as it’s your cite it would be nice if you did that bit of work.
– there appears to be one copy in my 40-library system, though it’s not in any of the libraries in towns I ordinarily go to. I’ll think about ordering it, some time when I think I might read 500+ pages; not because of this particular thread, but because it does look interesting. But I wouldn’t try to give as a cite the information that I read something somewhere in a 500+ page work that most wouldn’t have on hand (and apparently you don’t either), and expect people who have specific questions about what the supposed cite actually says to just hunt up the whole book in order to attempt to get them answered. Your mileage obviously varies.
No, I’m not seeing it that way. It seems somewhat ridiculous that you can make the accusation against me but I’m supposed to now go do the research and find the evidence for you.
Honestly, I want your cite to be true, as it backs what I’ve been saying, but a somewhat remembered story out of a book that even you don’t have access to isn’t a cite.
Eh, I’ve been told to go read books before on the 'dope. A book is a cite like any other, but I will note that one shouldn’t cite a source without first understanding its contents. If Little_Nemo doesn’t even remember the year or location of this supposed famine, how do we know he’s remembering the causes correctly?
I briefly perused the General History of Virginia by Captain John Smith (yes, that John Smith). There was a section about famine aside from the Starving Time… on the island of Barbados, in 1613-1614. But I saw nothing about the causes being related to tobacco production. In 1614 the very first tobacco exports were shipped from Jamestown, so that is almost certainly not the cause of the famine on Barbados.
Little_Nemo asserted that laws were enacted afterwards to set aside a proportion of land for growing corn. I couldn’t find any such mention. I don’t think they had legislatures in the colony at that point (ETA: Virginia General Assembly, first law making body, est. 1619) but I could be wrong - so no local laws so to speak, simply orders from the governor/VTC or his appointees.
What accusation? That you didn’t back your claim with evidence?
If you’d have to go do research to find the evidence, then you appear to be agreeing that you didn’t provide any.
If you think I accused you of anything else, then please tell me what it was.
For an item as specific as ‘what year was the famine that’s being referred to?’
I’ve certainly seen people post things along the lines of ‘it’s a long complicated argument that I can’t summarize any better within a few paragraphs, and is way too long to quote within fair use; you’d have to read the book.’ But I don’t think that’s the same thing as asking for a cite or at least a clear quote or at the very least a clear summarization for a specific detail.
The first accusation is that I didn’t give a cite. That accusation is objectively not true. I gave the title and authors when I was asked.
When somebody asks for a cite, it means two things. Either they find the topic interesting and want to learn more about it. Or they think the person who claimed something is making it up.
You’ve already said you are not planning to read the book I recommended. So you’re not interested in learning more about the topic.
So your second accusation is that you think I made up what I wrote. I didn’t. But I don’t really care what you believe. I will say that if I was making things up, it’s a pretty ballsy move on my part to give the title and authors of the book so anyone can check it. Generally people who are making things up are a little more vague on their sources.
As for your claim that I’d “have to go do research to find the evidence” I’ve already done the research and found the evidence.
No, I didn’t say that at all. I said it looks interesting and I might read it when I’ve got time.
No, I don’t think you made it up, and I’m not accusing you of having made it up. Wanting to be able to check whether others agree with what you remember the author as saying about the causes of that particular famine is in no way the same as saying that I think you made it up. Wondering whether your memory of the author’s argument is perfectly accurate is also not the same as saying that I think you made it up.
And wondering whether you might have misinterpreted the book’s argument as badly as you’re misinterpreting mine isn’t saying that I think you made it up, either. Nor am I even now assuming that you’ve done so.
It’s not my claim, it’s yours.
But as you have in any case done that work, can you please tell us the dates of the famine in question, so the rest of us can identify what famine you’re talking about?
I missed this reply. I don’t think it is a fundamental rule of economics that manufacturers should maintain reserve inventory sufficient to make up for planners who get supply and demand wrong. If I ever wrote that, I was wrong.
I went back and read my replies. I never wrote that; you have mistakenly misinterpreted my position.
I wrote,
Recap of this debate (click to show/hide)
I’ve put emphesis on my main point. This is not a general statement. The subject is not any kind of economy, it is an economy where tire manufacturers might be expected to ramp up production at a moment’s notice. I do not suggest, as a fundamental rule of economics, that all manufacturers should operate with significant material reserves. I do, however, suggest that if you want to have the capacity to ramp up production of tractors at a moment’s notice, you need strategic reserves of necessary materials to produce tractors.
You were arguing that central planning is fundamentally incapable of accounting for unexpected surges in demand. I provided a valid counterexample, in the form of a strategic reserve.
Then you posted this.
It seemed to me that for some reason you didn’t understand that I was talking about material reserves. Otherwise why would you ask if the tire manufacturer should keep a surplus of rubber? Surely you know that most countries keep a national strategic reserve of rubber? The answer is obvious: if the tire manufacturer is expected to ramp up production at a moment’s notice, there must be a reserve of materials like rubber. You didn’t seem to get what I was talking about.
You’re not stupid, and I know you know all of this. You know in a central planning economy it is literally the function of central planning to determine when to grow and shrink the reserves. Why would you even ask that question? You must think I’m talking about something else.
So I moved to the general concept of a surplus of materials, which I think is fundamental to any economy. Not only is that directly relevant to your OP, I also thought you would connect the dots back to your flawed argument about central planning.
The idea for a reserve is that it grows and shrinks based on expected demand, or even demand surges, not actual demand. See the words “in case of a supply shortage”? That applies in the general sense, both short term and long term, large scale and small scale. That’s why I suggested that it is a fundamental principle of economics. All manufacturers should have at least a small surplus of inputs in case of a supply shortage. As I wrote, “in case your monthly shipment gets delayed by a storm or something”. Even people at the individual level should keep small surpluses of critical goods like food, water, toilet paper. In case of a supply shortage (i.e. natural/unnatural disaster). At the macro level a nation state will have strategic reserves of key materials and products such as rubber or tractors, in case of a supply shortage. For example, in case a supplier nation cuts off exports… or if there’s a war that causes labor shortages and excess demand.
See the note at the end? With perishables and on-demand production you don’t keep large reserves. This was something I noted even back then. The COVID-19 pandemic really shines a light on how dependent the global economy is on JIT supply chains. I know you know this too.
But, perishables and on-demand production isn’t designed to ramp up production at a moment’s notice. They can only handle very short interruptions in the supply chain, because if there are large safety stocks, it isn’t really lean is it? That approach to production is clearly inappropriate in an economy where tractor manufacturers are expected to step up production at a moment’s notice. Or one where tire manufacturers are expected to step up production at a moment’s notice. Hence the various strategic rubber reserves of the twentieth century.
I assumed you made the connections. Apparently you didn’t. You posted,
No goalposts were moved by me as everything I wrote is consistent, and none of it has been validly contradicted by you.
You seemingly challenged the fundamental principle that manufacturers should keep a surplus of materials in case of supply shortage. I literally wrote that and you literally wrote “No, they don’t”. What I wrote works for both lean safety stock and traditional strategic reserves. Those are just different names for surpluses of materials. What I wrote works at large and small scale, in the short and long run. It’s generalized. I identified a fundamental rule of economics. Any reasonable interpretation of your post rejects it outright, on the basis that it doesn’t apply to JIT.
You brought JIT manufacturing into this discussion. I went with you into that tangent because it was directly relevant to the OP. You never countered my proposition that the Soviet Union failed to maintain the reserves necessary to ramp up tractor production at a moment’s notice.
Now we appear to have established that yes, even JIT has safety stock: “a SMALL amount of key materials are kept on hand in most cases, to handle waste, late shipments, and other very short-term needs.” You just conceded my point, if you recall I explicitly mentioned “in case your monthly shipment gets delayed by a storm or something.”
But now you’ve stopped. The ball is in your court, @Sam_Stone. Not mine. You criticized my counterargument and now you’ve conceded that your criticism is unfounded.
You claimed the failure of the Soviet Union to ramp up tractor production demonstrated a fundamental flaw in the principles of a centrally planned economy. I countered, that isn’t a fundamental flaw with centrally planned economies, it is just that the Soviet Union in particular failed to maintain a surplus of materials necessary to ramp up tractor production. You haven’t defended your original assertion at all, not even now.
Sure at one vote per dollar, and if the wealthy decide that they prefer their cats to poor people, capitalism will happily accept the popular vote in favor of grinding up the poor to make cat food.
I’ve been too busy with big projects to surf the webz recently. But I just saw this.
Bumping it again. Starting with the definitional point first.
I don’t particularly like the Argument From Connotation.
Is economics a [POSITIVE CONNOTATION WORD]?
The answer to this question normally has nothing to do with definitions. It’s based entirely on the ideological predispositions of the speaker. Some of the worst economists in the world will answer “yes” to this question, and they will natter on about “Economic [POSITIVE CONNOTATION WORD]” as if they raise the status of the discipline by talking about it as a neighbor to physics and chemistry.
Likewise, people who like to cite Marx approvingly will tend to answer “no”. They don’t want [POSITIVE CONNOTATION WORD] to be applied to the demon field. (I’ve yet to encounter such a person in the wild who has even read an intro econ textbook, or could pass an intro exam, but there it is. They don’t actually know anything about the field, but that doesn’t lessen their belief that [POSITIVE CONNOTATION WORD] doesn’t apply to economics.)
We can rephrase without the [POSITIVE CONNOTATION WORD] and get a more useful answer to a more precisely stated question.
Is economics a relatively systematic attempt to understand a certain slice of the world, using real-world empirical data and formal modeling techniques?
Yes. (Obviously.)
Is economics a relatively good systematic attempt to understand a certain slice of the world, using real-world empirical data and formal modeling techniques?
Well… Personally, I would argue “yes” to this question, as long as you slice finely enough. You can slide pretty quickly from a context where the regular tools are good and proper and useful, to a context where shit goes terribly wrong. But really? The main problem here is the discipline vs the people. I think most reasonably literate people would benefit from reading a solid intro Price Theory text, e.g. David Friedman’s Hidden Order, or even his Price Theory, An Intermediate Text. (The “intermediate” is a matter of sophistication, not a matter of prerequisite. Someone reasonably intelligent with no prior exposure to the field could read it without any problem, as long as they put in the work.)
Economics has all sorts of useful stuff to say.
But that doesn’t mean most economists are very good at economics. My rough guess is that only 20% of macroeconomists have a solid handle on monetary macroeconomics. (I say this as a monetary macroeconomist.) Do the majority of the disciples fail their discipline? Yes. Is that a failure of the discipline itself? …eh… The fraction of people who have a solid handle on monetary macroeconomics outside of the economics profession is a small fraction of a single percent. 20% isn’t that bad, when compared to the rest of the population.
You’re a helluva lot more likely to find someone who knows what they’re talking about if you’re on the inside. But you still have to look around.
It’s up to an given individual whether they think any “social science” qualifies for [POSITIVE CONNOTATION WORD].
I tend to think the answer is “yes” to all of them. The social sciences are sciences. But most social scientists – including most economists – tend to be extremely bad at what they try to do. Society is complicated. People are ideological machines who prefer their pet beliefs to looking impartially at the world. Just the way it is.
Marginal value diminishes.
Marginal cost eventually increases.
People spend the majority of their actions to improve their own personal welfare, or that of their family or closest friends.
People tend to act relatively sensibly to achieve their goals in the majority of everyday contexts. For example, no-one goes to the grocery store for a gallon of milk and comes home with 20 gallons.
You can derive a large chunk of economics from those four ideas.
The first three points are relatively obvious.
This last point is less so. Good decision-making is taken for granted by almost everyone, because of how awful the exceptions are. But it’s still fairly clear when you consider it. People can find a thousand examples from their own everyday life of little things they (and almost everyone else) accomplish successfully every single day. These things are “trivial”, but the only reason they’re trivial is that humans are relatively clever at solving many kinds of tasks.
But the exceptions to sensible behavior are more likely to capture our interest, because of how horrific the consequences of the absurd decisions can be.
These tend to be non-everyday contexts. People are bad at making a decision today that will have consequences in ten years. People are bad at abstract problems. People are bad at situations they don’t encounter very often. Essentially all of the worst decisions that people make (take voting for [TERRIBLE CANDIDATE] as an obvious example) fall into one or more of these categories.
As economics shifts its focus into these more difficult categories, it becomes significantly more difficult to do good analysis. But these are the contexts that interest people the most. Economics is the worst in some of the places where people look to it to work best. Disappointment is inevitable in such cases.
This causes many people to miss other important contexts where econ works pretty well.
I think I need to clarify. I definitely think it’s possible to DO science in economics, and I think there are lots of people in the field doing good science. The same is true for the other ‘soft’ sciences - all of them have areas where good science can be done, and is being done.
Also, I don’t equate ‘science’ with ‘useful’. If economics were seen more as a study of philiosophy, it would still be worth studying, and good insights about the world could be made.
That said… The thing that distinguishes real science from other fields of study is falsifiability and reproduceability. I’m firmly in the Popper camp with this. The main difference is that a real science is testable, and therefore certain conclusions are not open to debate or rejection because of ideology, group-think or other reasons.
Economics is a field where there are entire ‘schools’ that differ with other schools on very fundamental aspects. That doesn’t happen in physics or chemistry. A financial crisis can cause economists to completely ignore the lessons of economic history or previously accepted theory and go off on something new. There are Ph.D economists who believe in Marxism, or MMT, or Keynesianism or Monetarism. They are all incompatible and it should be possible to distinguish truth between them if it were determined scientifically. You have ‘freshwater’ and ‘saltwater’ economists strongly disagreeing with each other on fundamentals.
That’s the true problem with ‘scientific’ fields that rely on previous work that cannot be falsified: There is no universal error-checking mechanism to ensure the field isn’t captured by ideologues or dominated by a prestigious school or ‘great men’ who may or may not be correct but are rarely questioned.
These fields can go completely of the rails in ways that purely scientific fields don’t. You don’t get ‘conservative’ physics or ‘liberal physics’, because there’s just physics and false ideas are discarded. Philosophy, Pyschology, and even Economics are not like that. Or at least, not universsally. In each of them there may be some basic principles or sub-fields that are falsifiable and on which everyone can agree regardless of politics or bias. But the ‘discipline’ itself in aggregate is not based on a foundation of falsifiable concepts, and therefore they are subject to drift and can believe false things for a long period of time. Freud was at the top of the Psychology pyramid for something like 70 years, despite most of what he offered being wrong and rejected today.
Sussing out what’s universally considered ‘true’ in economics was what I created this thread for.
Those look to me like behavioural observbations that are generally true, but not ‘fundamental rules’. I agree that all of them are roughly true. But are they fundamental?
Studying complexity theory has changed my mind about some aspects of economics. For example, the rational actor and efficient markets. Complex adaptive systems do not require perfection - when an ant finds a pheromone trail, half the time it will follow it in the wrong direction. In that sense, it’s not efficient. It’s only at the system level that you can understand why the system works that way.
Likewise, adaptive systems thrive on outliers. Ants mostly behave predictably. But a small percentage of ants will go off script and go on long journeys or do something else completely atypical. This is called ‘the Lévy flight foraging hypothesis’. Most of them die in the process, but occassionally one of them discovers some large new food source, and the colony benefits. The human equivalent would be explorers who set out for new worlds, entrepreneurs who take big chances on crazy ideas, scientists who refuse convention and follow their wild hares, etc.
Lévy flight can lead to optimal searches in a complex system, but when looked at outside of the context of the whole system it can look crazy, inefficient, and irrational.
IMO, we should be studying economics like we study ecology and evolution, not physics.
But demand is derived from diminishing marginal value. Supply (when it exists) is derived from increasing marginal cost. The fundamental pieces of the analysis are the observations regarding value and cost. It is from those observations that demand and supply are derived.
(This is actually why demand functions and supply functions are graphed “backwards”, with the independent variable on the vertical axis. It is because the more fundamental forces from which they are derived – value and cost – are the first layer of analysis, and in that first layer of analysis, the independent variables are on the horizontal axis, just as convention would dictate. Rather than switching the axes when deriving supply from marginal cost, or demand from marginal value, it is much easier to just use the same graphical space and simply change the name of the curve on the blackboard.)
Your “law of self interest” is basically the same as my own third point. I agree it’s fundamental.
There is nothing inherently wrong with calling things “laws”, but I personally shy away from that kind of language, because we’re talking about statistical likelihoods. Marginal value sometimes increases: a car with two tires is just a hunk of metal. A car with a third tire is hardly any more useful than with the first two. But the fourth tire creates a situation significantly better than before. It turns the hunk of metal into a working vehicle. Marginal value can increase. The “law of demand” is statistically extremely solid, but it’s not an absolute law of the universe that demand curves must slope downward.
This is another place where some people get queasy. They seem to want hard rules, rather than overwhelmingly strong tendencies. But in the world of human behavior, any “law” will have an exception. Strong tendencies are all we have.
Thankfully, diminishing marginal value is one helluva fucking strong tendency. Its power is enormous. Essentially any “economic” analysis is going to be built on the idea.
Likewise, if you’re going to assume that people want to achieve desirable goals, and try to take actions that will bring those goals into fruition – like buying milk at the grocery store, in order to have it with a bowl of cereal tomorrow morning – you are essentially always assuming that they are sensible enough to be able to do that. You can’t derive demand from marginal value without assuming that on average, by and large, most of the time, people more or less make the right-ish sorts of choices that will get them the milk that they desire to have. (In slightly more formal terms, you can’t go from a utility function to a particularly chosen “optimal” behavior unless you’re assuming that the agents within the model will correctly choose that which they want to do, given their constraints: that they are capable of this optimization, which real-world people will roughly approximate to some extent.)
It is your own “law of competition” that is not fundamental, but rather something derived from the sorts of observations I listed.
One formal statement of the sort of thing you’re talking about would be the First Fundamental Welfare Theorem, sometimes called the “Invisible Hand Theorem”. Now the welfare theorems are inherently silly. They’re more of a “proof of concept” than a useful guide to any real-world economy. But my point here is that that kind of theorem is a conclusion, not a fundamental rule. Likewise with your more informal statement about the invisible hand. It is also a conclusion that happens to be built on top of more fundamental pieces. Adam Smith mentioned the idea exactly one time in each of his books, and not at the beginning of the books. It was something he had to build toward after establishing previous, more fundamental observations.
What are those pieces that build up to the conclusion that market participants will act toward the benefits of others, even if that is not their primary intention?
I would argue (and did argue) that the main points are the four I specified.