# The future of the Democratic brand **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 5, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312 "2015-07-05T13:43:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/121 "2015-07-31T14:06:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You’ve put your finger on it, **BG** - class envy all the way. Class envy. Like when the French decapitated their own government in the late 18th century. I kind of interpret envy as “I think what you have is quite alright, and I want a piece of that.” I don’t see the upcoming American classwar as being about wanting to trade places with the filthy rich, so much as wanting to chop their grimy hands off the reins of government, and gnawing their feet off the necks of the proles. If that happens to mean the rest of us unwashed live a little better–and really, just a little better, as in being able to live respectably and spend the last 15 or so years of our lives enjoying the garden we worked so hard to create in the previous 40–then isn’t that only right? ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/122 "2015-07-31T14:20:26Z")
It would probably be easier to justify raising the gas tax if all the money was actually spent on the roads. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/123 "2015-07-31T14:36:08Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > It would probably be easier to justify raising the gas tax if all the money was actually spent on the roads. [It’s pretty transparent.](https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/motorfuel/faqs.htm#q4) About 85% to roads, about 15% to mass transit. Want to kill the mass transit? That puts more traffic on the roads. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/124 "2015-07-31T14:52:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If that does not make the rich significantly poorer, at least it will stop them from getting richer and richer at everyone else’s expense like they have been doing since the 1970s. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So? How can we prevent that over-concentration[.] Do we know how much this actually motivates voters? I’ve never been terribly concerned about rich people, but maybe lots of voters are. But maybe they feel like their quality of life has been improving regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/125 "2015-07-31T14:59:27Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Do we know how much this actually motivates voters? I’ve never been terribly concerned about rich people, but maybe lots of voters are. But maybe they feel like their quality of life has been improving regardless. A bit like boiling a frog. Life feels normal, and has since the 70s, But normal has slowly changed. In order to live the same lifestyle as previous generations, to have vacations, reasonably-nice things, functioning cars, a college education, requires more direct spending of take-home pay at the expense of retirement savings. Indeed, we go further and incur massive credit debt. At some point the frog actually boils and begins to realize damage. The non-rich are at or near that point. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/126 "2015-07-31T17:13:11Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > At some point the frog actually boils and begins to realize damage. The non-rich are at or near that point. I wonder how many people actually feel boiled. I’ve certainly heard more noise, but I think it’s relevance to the Dcrat brand will depend in part on how widespread those feelings are. I’d certainly take the $25k I made 2009 over living with an equivalent purchasing power in 1979. But maybe I’m the odd one. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/127 "2015-07-31T18:15:32Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > [It’s pretty transparent.](https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/motorfuel/faqs.htm#q4) > > About 85% to roads, about 15% to mass transit. Want to kill the mass transit? That puts more traffic on the roads. When funding mass transit means Amtrak and high-speed rail I think the money would be better spent elsewhere. In addition to mass transit there are earmarked expenditures for things such as sidewalks, bike paths, recreational trails, and environmental mitigation. The federal tax was originally supposed to sunset in 1969. There’s nothing stopping states from raising their taxes to cover the loss of federal taxes that come to them with strings attached. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/128 "2015-07-31T18:43:53Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > When funding mass transit means Amtrak and high-speed rail I think the money would be better spent elsewhere. Nope. Local and regional. First you said it should be spent on roads, and you got a cite that 85% of it is. Then you claim that the mass transit portion goes to Amtrak, without checking it. Before we even discuss policy, can you be assed to find out what the facts are? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/129 "2015-07-31T20:32:43Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > The federal tax was originally supposed to sunset in 1969. There’s nothing stopping states from raising their taxes to cover the loss of federal taxes that come to them with strings attached. Of course there is. It’s the Republican Party. The party of Reagan, who convinced the flock that yes there is a free lunch and we’re going to eat it. The party that promised Grover Norquist that they will never ever under any circumstances raise any tax by one penny on anyone for as long as the party exists. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/130 "2015-07-31T21:41:07Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I wonder how many people actually feel boiled. I’ve certainly heard more noise, but I think it’s relevance to the Dcrat brand will depend in part on how widespread those feelings are. I’d certainly take the $25k I made 2009 over living with an equivalent purchasing power in 1979. But maybe I’m the odd one. Well, if someone seizes control of the party who is NOT in the pockets of the oligarchs, I imagine the message goes something like: “Wake up, You’re being boiled!” I’m doing better now than when I entered the workforce 30 years ago. Pretty much everyone is. But map yourself–your age, occupation, income–onto someone with the same profile (adjust the salary for inflation just to be fair about it) in 1985. Or even 1955. NOW how are you doing? Call out specific demographics and let them know how much better their counterparts 30 or 60 years ago had it. Point to relative incomes, housing costs, education costs, the disappearance of single-income households and speculate on what that has done to parenting. And then offer solutions that allow the industrious and ingenious to profit only _fabulously_ as opposed to _obscenely_. Eventually, people will realize their life’s anxiety IS the feeling of being boiled. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/131 "2015-08-01T02:28:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Most attempts to liken any government spending to a household are doomed to fail, but I’m going to try anyway. The federal gas tax hasn’t been raised since 1993. Now suppose you were a homeowner maintaining your house optimally in 1993. Now suppose you were told that you couldn’t ever spend a nickel more per year than you did in 1993. Could you maintain your house in 2015 using the same amount of money that you did in 1993? I dare say no. Everything costs more. Yet we expect government to maintain the roads in 2015 with the same money (even less, due to fuel efficient cars) as it did in 1993. Guess what- you can’t do it. You can piss and moan about how the eeevil eeevil government can’t do anything right, and if you tie its hands, it can’t. So fucking suck it up and raise the gas tax. Christ, every time someone farts in the middle east, the gas price goes up by a quarter anyway. Yet Republican politicians insist that raising gas taxes by a penny would be the end of western civilization. The gas tax should go up, I agree. Highway funding, like SS, is in a trust fund with a dedicated funding stream. However unlike SS, people pay for it and use it at the same time. So if it’s got a shortfall, then gas taxes have to be raised. However, that’s not to say that highway funding is spent wisely. As with any infrastructure there’s a bias towards new projects over maintenance. Congress must start requiring a certain percentage of funding to go to maintenance. Of course, Congress is part of the problem here because they use the Highway Trust Fund as a jobs fund, and new projects create more jobs than maintenance, so I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/132 "2015-08-01T19:43:00Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > However, that’s not to say that highway funding is spent wisely. As with any infrastructure there’s a bias towards new projects over maintenance. Congress must start requiring a certain percentage of funding to go to maintenance. Of course, Congress is part of the problem here because they use the Highway Trust Fund as a jobs fund, and new projects create more jobs than maintenance, so I’m not holding my breath. [Not remotely true.](http://www.artba.org/about/transportation-faqs/#8) > [@](#): > > In 2011, the latest year for which the Federal Highway Administration has released data, the Federal highway program committed $31.8 billion for new projects improving 126,879 miles of highway and 4,670 bridges. Only $2.2 billion or 6.8 percent of this total was committed for new highway or bridge construction. An additional $3.4 billion or 10.6 percent was committed for projects that added capacity to the highway system. Almost three times as much, $13.4 billion or 42.2 percent, was committed for improvements designed to maintain or preserve existing roads and bridges, such as road reconstruction and resurfacing, bridge replacements and bridge repairs. $2.1 billion or 6.3 percent was committed for traffic safety improvements, traffic management, or environmental improvements. The remaining $10.8 billion was committed for other improvements, including right of way acquisition, engineering, research and planning. (Data source: Highway Statistics 2011, Table FA-10) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/133 "2015-08-01T19:53:00Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > I’m doing better now than when I entered the workforce 30 years ago. Pretty much everyone is. But map yourself–your age, occupation, income–onto someone with the same profile (adjust the salary for inflation just to be fair about it) in 1985. Or even 1955. NOW how are you doing? Call out specific demographics and let them know how much better their counterparts 30 or 60 years ago had it. Point to relative incomes, housing costs, education costs, the disappearance of single-income households and speculate on what that has done to parenting. And then offer solutions that allow the industrious and ingenious to profit only _fabulously_ as opposed to _obscenely_. Eventually, people will realize their life’s anxiety IS the feeling of being boiled. Like I said, I’d rather have the $25k I was making in 2009 than the [equivalent purchasing power in 1979](http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=2009&year2=1979). The question is how many people feel otherwise? Compensation has been rising since then. And we have the internet. And better hair styles, as another poster pointed out to me elsewhere. So I wonder if that’s going to play into party branding. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/134 "2015-08-01T19:58:55Z")
the future of the Democratic brand? Interesting question. If the Democratic Party widens its support over Republican, which actually narrowed in 2012 from 2008, it has a bright future. If it doesn’t, which would happen by nominating a socialist like Sanders, the Dems are screwed. Hillary Clinton is the best hope. The Dem party could do MUCH better in Appalachia and the non-deep South. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/135 "2015-08-01T21:49:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > “Everyone should be treated the same” is now “coded language” in liberal circles. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Coded? Then what do you think it really means? > [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Then what’s the secret liberal code in “Everyone should be treated the same”? If you’re going throw that out there, you should really explain it. Still paging adaher! Still paging adaher! ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/136 "2015-08-02T00:20:11Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Still paging adaher! Still paging adaher! Well, in **Addy** ’s defense, he has been busy getting his ass handed to him by **BobLibDem**. See post 132 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/137 "2015-08-02T02:13:12Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > Well, in **Addy** ’s defense, he has been busy getting his ass handed to him by **BobLibDem**. > > See post 132 Thanks but in all fairness to adaher, that’s a common misconception. I’ve worked for a DOT for 37 years and I know damn well we aren’t building many new routes (yeah, politicians love to cut ribbons) so it was a piece of cake to refute. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/138 "2015-08-02T02:35:10Z")
Total hijack … but given your expertise **BobLibDem** - Thoughts you have about a mileage tax instead of gas tax? Ray LaHood had floated it during his tenure to a total lack of support but let’s be real, most of my miles in my plug-in hybrid are gas-free but I use the roads too. I am happy to benefit from others paying for it but fairness includes me paying my share. Without it gas taxes need to be raised substantially and on an ongoing basis as cars become more efficient. Thoughts about how (semi)autonomous vehicles with V2V communication (that allow greater density on roadways as vehicles can function as “car trains”) will potentially impact capacity demands? Is that, to your knowledge, being modeled? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/139 "2015-08-02T23:12:43Z")
Ah. Able to find [the latter bit](http://safevehicle.ee.columbia.edu/docs/Tientrakool11.pdf) myself. > [@](#): > > … both technologies can increase highway capacity. The increase in capacity is a function of the fraction of the vehicles that use a technology. If all of the vehicles use sensors alone, the increase in highway capacity is about 43%. While if all of the vehicles use both sensors and vehicle-to-vehicle communication, the increase is about 273%. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312/140 "2015-08-10T12:20:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So? How can we prevent that over-concentration without demonizing the wealthiest? Thought of this post again when I read [this editorial](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/09/opinion/sunday/capitalists-arise-we-need-to-deal-with-income-inequality.html?ref=opinion). Not sure what I think of the specifics he discusses but the idea is valid: dramatically increasing inequality is long term not good for the wealthiest either. They can be allies in fixing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-future-of-the-democratic-brand/724312.md?page=8)