# The "gay fix" is out **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253 "2012-04-28T18:30:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/1 "2012-04-28T18:30:42Z")
Dr. Robert Spitzer, author of the 2001 study that suggested “highly motivated” individuals could benefit from anti-gay therapy, has [withdrawn the study’s conclusions](http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/04/11/462292/ex-gay-study-disavowed/). > [@](#): > > In retrospect, I have to admit I think the critiques are largely correct,” he said. “The findings can be considered evidence for what those who have undergone ex-gay therapy say about it, but nothing more.” He said he spoke with the editor of the Archives of Sexual Behavior about writing a retraction, but the editor declined. > > \ > > Spitzer said that he was proud of having been instrumental in removing homosexuality from the list of mental disorders. Now 80 and retired, he was afraid that the 2001 study would tarnish his legacy and perhaps hurt others. He said that failed attempts to rid oneself of homosexual attractions “can be quite harmful.” This appears to have been the last vestige of mainstream scientific support for the claim that sexual orientation is a choice. Will the retraction make any difference? ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/2 "2012-04-28T18:40:26Z")
No. The people who believe in and use anti-gay therapy do so out of a religious belief, not a psychiatric one. The science is not important to them. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/3 "2012-04-28T18:51:10Z")
Nope, the anti-gay part of the bronze-age book of myths they follow has not been relegated to the “ignore” list yet (with wearing clothes made from multiple fibers being prohibited and the like). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_With_The_Golden_Gun)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/4 "2012-04-28T19:24:42Z")
How long will it be before Robert Spitzer himself is out, too? So to speak. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/5 "2012-04-28T19:28:02Z")
> [@The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](#): > > How long will it be before Robert Spitzer himself is out, too? > > So to speak. Dr. Swallower might beat him to it. At any rate, I don’t see this changing anyone’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/6 "2012-04-28T20:41:57Z")
According to the author of the [original article](http://prospect.org/article/my-so-called-ex-gay-life) in _The American Prospect_, in recent years Exodus International has already been backing off from claims that they could turn gay people straight through therapy: > [@](#): > > In the past few years, even Exodus has begun to show cracks in its support for ex-gay therapy. The organization has softened its rhetoric, encouraging its ministries to promote celibacy rather than change in order to live in concert with their religious values. The group no longer talks about “Freedom from Homosexuality”—its motto—but about the nobility of continuing to struggle against same-sex attractions. > > Exodus has also begun to distance itself from NARTH. In September of 2011, Exodus removed references to Nicolosi’s books and articles from its website. In January, Exodus president Alan Chambers spoke at a meeting of the Gay Christian Network. When asked about the possibility of gay people changing their sexual orientation, Chambers—who’d once claimed that he knew of thousands of success stories—said “99.9 percent” of those who had attempted to rid themselves of same-sex attractions had failed. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/7 "2012-04-30T20:07:14Z")
> [@The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](#): > > How long will it be before Robert Spitzer himself is out, too? > > So to speak. At age 80, he’s already passed the average life expectancy. So statistically, his light could go out at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/8 "2012-04-30T20:14:25Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > No. The people who believe in and use anti-gay therapy do so out of a religious belief, not a psychiatric one. The science is not important to them. Oh, there’s _definitely_ some psychiatric stuff going on with these people, all right… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/9 "2012-04-30T20:16:24Z")
I think it’s possible, although highly unusual, for someone who experiences himself as gay to undergo therapy and thereafter experience himself as straight. Before readers descend on me in a ravening horde, please read what I said carefully. Then add this thought: I think it’s possible for someone who experiences himself as straight to undergo therapy and thereafter experience himself as gay. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/10 "2012-04-30T20:32:33Z")
Caveat - I do not know the details of the therapy being discussed. However, I believe that “gay” and “straight” are on a continuum in every individual. For a certain narrow set of individuals, they exist close to the middle - they can find themselves attracted to either sex. For these individuals, who wish to - because of religious demand, for instance - suppress their homosexual desires and strengthen their heterosexual desires, I believe some types of therapy can be effective. Much like coaching for a dieter, or an AA sponsor relationship. The desires may never go away, but they can live comfortably without pursuing them. Don’t most of us live comfortably suppressing certain desires all the time? That said, the problem lies in overstating the effectiveness of the therapies and overpromising results. But this is a risk with any treatment. So, do we condemn the therapy outright? Or do we demand better science, and more transparency of results so that the consumer is better aware? I would say that is the path forward, regardless of Dr. Spitzer’s turnabout. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/11 "2012-04-30T20:42:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s possible, although highly unusual, for someone who experiences himself as gay to undergo therapy and thereafter experience himself as straight. > > Before readers descend on me in a ravening horde, please read what I said carefully. > > Then add this thought: > > I think it’s possible for someone who experiences himself as straight to undergo therapy and thereafter experience himself as gay. There was a time when Timothy Leary thought he could do the first with LSD therapy, so why not the second? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/12 "2012-04-30T20:55:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s possible, although highly unusual, for someone who experiences himself as gay to undergo therapy and thereafter experience himself as straight. > > Before readers descend on me in a ravening horde, please read what I said carefully. > > Then add this thought: > > I think it’s possible for someone who experiences himself as straight to undergo therapy and thereafter experience himself as gay. Sure, either could be the case, but not because of altering any core “sexual orientation”, but rather because of a desire to fit in or due to a poor mapping of our terminology for sexual orientation onto sexual behavior. In other words, all such cases would be trivial. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/13 "2012-04-30T21:35:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s possible, although highly unusual, for someone who experiences himself as gay to undergo therapy and thereafter experience himself as straight. > > Before readers descend on me in a ravening horde, please read what I said carefully. > > Then add this thought: > > I think it’s possible for someone who experiences himself as straight to undergo therapy and thereafter experience himself as gay. Or a liberal could be changed to a conservative, an atheist into a believer, a sexually reserved person into a sexual enthusiast, etc. Behavior modification therapy can be remarkably powerful, perhaps even dangerous. It should be used to help people who are in distress, not as a Procrustean “fix-all” to eliminate diversity. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/14 "2012-04-30T21:50:20Z")
Personally, I don’t care if same-sex attraction is a choice or not. Nor do I care about people’s sexual behavior\*. People should be respected for who they are and what they do\*. Period. \*It shouldn’t need to be stated that I mean among consenting adults, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/15 "2012-04-30T22:28:52Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Caveat - I do not know the details of the therapy being discussed. > > However, I believe that “gay” and “straight” are on a continuum in every individual. For a certain narrow set of individuals, they exist close to the middle - they can find themselves attracted to either sex. For these individuals, who wish to - because of religious demand, for instance - suppress their homosexual desires and strengthen their heterosexual desires, I believe some types of therapy can be effective. Much like coaching for a dieter, or an AA sponsor relationship. The desires may never go away, but they can live comfortably without pursuing them. Don’t most of us live comfortably suppressing certain desires all the time? I don’t think that’s the sort of person who seeks out “gay therapy,” though. Someone who’s truly bisexual can usually live perfectly happy, fulfilled lives with a heterosexual partner, and while they may occasionally have thoughts or urges they find distressing, I don’t think it will generally become the sort of quality-of-life issue that drives someone to seek counseling, particularly for something as stigmatized as homosexuality. The people who are drawn to the ex-gay movement are, I suspect, largely pretty heavily pegged to one side of the Kinsey scale. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/16 "2012-04-30T23:25:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think that’s the sort of person who seeks out “gay therapy,” though. Someone who’s truly bisexual can usually live perfectly happy, fulfilled lives with a heterosexual partner, and while they may occasionally have thoughts or urges they find distressing, I don’t think it will generally become the sort of quality-of-life issue that drives someone to seek counseling, particularly for something as stigmatized as homosexuality. The people who are drawn to the ex-gay movement are, I suspect, largely pretty heavily pegged to one side of the Kinsey scale. That’s why I stated that it can work for a narrow segment - I have seen it be successful with 2 individuals, but they were both more in the middle and had other non-sexual-oriented personal qualities that worked in their favor. I have also seen many many more where it did not work. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/17 "2012-04-30T23:31:17Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > However, I believe that “gay” and “straight” are on a continuum in every individual. For a certain narrow set of individuals, they exist close to the middle - they can find themselves attracted to either sex. For these individuals, who wish to - because of religious demand, for instance - suppress their homosexual desires and strengthen their heterosexual desires, I believe some types of therapy can be effective. Much like coaching for a dieter, or an AA sponsor relationship. The desires may never go away, but they can live comfortably without pursuing them. Don’t most of us live comfortably suppressing certain desires all the time? > . I’m sure that the continuum is the best way to describe the variability in sexual desire in humans, not only in the selection of the sex of a partner, but just about every other aspect of sex. But suppressing desire has to have an incredibly low success rate. I can understand that someone wants to make a choice if they have options, and may want to find ways to cope with desires they don’t want for some reason. But suppression sounds like the worst possible way to deal with it. As you mention, they may be able to live comfortably without pursuing them, but that’s not the same as suppressing them. As far as the original question is concerned, I don’t think it’s proven that sexuality preferences are inherently defined in people in some binary mode. If people weren’t so hung up on the sex lives of others people would have a much easier time figuring out what their own sexual preferences are and not have their uniqueness be a burden in life. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/18 "2012-04-30T23:52:59Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But suppression sounds like the worst possible way to deal with it. As you mention, they may be able to live comfortably without pursuing them, but that’s not the same as suppressing them. That is a meaningful distinction, IMHO we lack the simple terminology to describe the phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/19 "2012-05-03T08:59:29Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Personally, I don’t care if same-sex attraction is a choice or not. Nor do I care about people’s sexual behavior\*. People should be respected for who they are and what they do\*. Period. > > \*It shouldn’t need to be stated that I mean among consenting adults, of course. Thank you for saying this. Even if my attraction were a choice, that wouldn’t make it a “bad” choice, nor me a “bad” person for having made it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253/20 "2012-05-03T12:55:32Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Thank you for saying this. Even if my attraction were a choice, that wouldn’t make it a “bad” choice, nor me a “bad” person for having made it. It might, if your attraction was to Perez Hilton. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-fix-is-out/620253.md?page=2)