# The Gay "Lifestyle" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2002, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552 "2002-04-25T16:11:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/81 "2002-04-26T16:28:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Stop drawing lines in the sand and demanding that people toe them. Try to love everyone as who they are, not what they would look like in the uniform you would try to force them into. This argument is raised by both sides. I, for one, try very hard to follow it myself and to respect people who are working for Queer liberation by whatever means. However, it’s not often I receive the same consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/82 "2002-04-26T17:11:38Z")
Does the T in G/L/B/T really belong? For example one of the latest things is the ban on gay adoption in florida. You get articles like HRC’s [http://www.hrc.org/newsreleases/2002/020315florida.asp](http://www.hrc.org/newsreleases/2002/020315florida.asp) > [@](#): > > “Florida’s anti-gay adoption ban is a national disgrace, a daily insult and a harm to the thousands of children whose prospects for adoption are threatened because bigotry eliminates qualified parents,” said Nadine Smith, executive director of Equality Florida, a statewide group representing gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Floridians. When asked to actually include transgendered people among those who would be able to adopt they refused. They said it was “Heartbreaking”, but they only wanted transgendered people to support them and were not willing to do the same in return because they felt that transgendered people were not important enough to risk the bill having a less chance of passing. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/83 "2002-04-26T17:20:31Z")
God, I hate that, Sterra. I don’t think there’s any excuse for that kind of bullshit out of any group that wants to call itself GLBT. ---
**Author:** ![SFCanadian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SFCanadian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SFCanadian)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/84 "2002-04-26T19:00:55Z")
Transgendered rights are JUST AS important as Gay rights… I get totally incensed that a group of marginalized people like us can actually do the same thing to some of our own… We all need to work together on this… Turning things into an “us versus them” doesn’t help… The radical right doesn’t care if you’re a drag queen, a leather queen or a Gay stockbroker in a suit who “fits in”… you’re still “destroying society”… ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/85 "2002-04-26T19:12:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **I’ve been outspoken both here, on another board (where nobody was willing to conduct the fight along with me except Homebrew and, up until recently, JayJay)** Hey! I’ve got several bruises and giant “View Only” under my name at that parlor because of fighting on those very same issues. 🙂 Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/86 "2002-04-26T19:22:23Z")
Sorry, **Kirk**! I was thinking of people who went from here to there, not the other way around! 🙂 (Hmmm…if I get enough Parlorites over here, do **I** get a toaster oven? 🆒 ) ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/87 "2002-04-26T19:31:15Z")
Please, don’t pollute this place like that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2002, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/88 "2002-04-28T08:19:43Z")
Why is it you all start these threads and no one _tells_ me? ☹ The **Gay Guy** needs to read this thread more thoroughly… Esprix ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2002, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/89 "2002-04-28T15:46:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ooner \* > [B > As for use of the word Queer, I still think that “gay” describes the whole scene pretty well, politically and otherwise. Who says Bi/Trans/Straight people aren’t accepted if we’re called “gay” but they are if we’re called “queer”? Why unneccesarily adopt a commonly uncomfortable word to replace a common one that bothers few people? \*\* Nahh, I gotta go with Queer. Straight MtF and FtM are not gay, but they are arugably queer. My husband who is quite straight is arguably queer too. My girlfirend is gynophilic MtF and therefore somewhat gay/lesbian/queer but does not identify strongly with gay or lesbian culture. Me, I’m bi. I won’t argue that I’m not queer. I don’t participate in gay culture in that I don’t interact with anyone because of their sexual orientation. I am gay aware and I am very grateful for those who are fighting for my rights and those who have fought for them. Many have died and many have suffered while doing so. I’m not about to wish they would do so quietly or with less flair or flare. But it isn’t my culture. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2002, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/90 "2002-04-28T15:55:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ooner \* > **As for use of the word Queer, I still think that “gay” describes the whole scene pretty well, politically and otherwise.** I don’t. As a transsexual, I am frequently annoyed by the use of “gay” to encompass transsexuals. Our issues aren’t your issues (except for a few overlaps here and there) and you don’t represent us. I don’t identify as queer at all, even though I am without a doubt an odd person who others (including, apparently, my girlfriend) might be tempted to label as “queer”. I feel uncomfortable identifying as a lesbian because the only aspect of “lesbian culture” I participate in seems to be the bit about having sex with women, which from what I can gather is a relatively unimportant part of being a lesbian (!). I feel uncomfortable identifying as gay because, in my mind, at least, gay is a male thing and, dammit, I’m not male! And don’t even get me started on “transsexual culture” (barf). Being transsexual has certainly affected my life in profound ways that nontranssexuals are ill-equipped to understand, let alone appreciate, but I really don’t want my life defined by my transsexuality. I suppose the closest identification I can make is lesbian, but there’s a lot of lesbians who would reject my claim to that label for any of a large number of reasons. It’s a little hard to identify with a group that would prefer to reject you (e.g. the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival and its rule about “womyn-born-womyn”). The so-called “gay community” has a lot of instances of rather nasty behavior toward transgenders despite all the claims of inclusiveness. Maybe I’m just weird. People have told me that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2002, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/91 "2002-04-28T18:26:33Z")
These semantic foofaraws over “gay,” “queer,” and such are making The baby **Ryan** cry! 😉 While I confess to a great deal of compassion and empathy towards the transsexual community and its members, in a world where people are still convinced that all gay people are promiscuous pedophiles seeking to recruit others into their ungodly lifestyle, the idea of educating someone about the inner life of a person with a given sexual phenotype who is convinced that he/she is, or ought to be, actually of the opposite sex is a concept that is going to be impossible to put across. While I don’t like it, there is some ground for placing advocacy by and for transsexuals as a second-stage agenda item, to be pursued when the goals of acceptance and rights for all people regardless of their sexuality is more widespread than it is today. I say this with no intent to belittle the concerns of transsexual people but with an eye to what may be practically accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2002, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/92 "2002-04-28T20:55:52Z")
I don’t think so Polycarp because most people link the two communities together in their minds. I used to dislike it when people called me gay untill one guy gave me his definition of gay as “a guy who wants to become a girl”. In reality people already understand the idea and usually just think that it makes you gay. As for what can be pratically acomplished I don’t think that that is true. Because nothing can be pratically accomplished if nothing happens. Its like how people told Martin Luther King Jr to wait. You mistakenly believe that waiting will help instead of hurt. Waiting only makes people become more set in their opinions and less likely to change them. The toughest opponents transexuals will probably face are transphobic gay people, and all the gay people who don’t care enough to make an effort. The rest will most likely support transexuals the same time they support gay people. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2002, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/93 "2002-04-28T22:24:04Z")
Sterra and KellyM have made a point in what I’ve seen to be a glaring issue. Transgender men and women are often mistreated within the gay community. I think this is because they are as fixed in their concepts of gender identity as straight people often are. A gay man is supposed to be one way, while a lesbian is supposed to be their way, etcetera. I’ve seen few gay men or lesbians who have a concept of gender being a fluid continuum. The few people I have met who have a concept of gender being open and fluid are often bisexuals(who are attacked for their way of being) and the overeducated(who have a great concept of it, but it is all theoretical). I’ve seen some gay men freak out over transsexuals who want to go from male to female because they think it hurts gays politically. See, some gay men that I have known have put forth the inane thought that for a man to become a woman reinforces what straight society thinks of us. I don’t see things changing until more educators like Kate Bornstein(check out her books at Amazon or another retailer) penetrate the conciousness and raise awareness while spreading their fabulousness around. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2002, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/94 "2002-04-28T23:10:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*While I don’t like it, there is some ground for placing advocacy by and for transsexuals as a second-stage agenda item, to be pursued when the goals of acceptance and rights for all people regardless of their sexuality is more widespread than it is today. \*\* I understand this point of view and am not particularly disturbed by it. The problem I have is with organizations like HRC who claim to represent “gay, bisexual, lesbian, **and transsexual** interests” and then only represent the first three. By creating and using the LGBT moniker, we reinforce the incorrect notion that Ts are “just another flavor of gayness” while not actually providing any significant benefit to transsexuals. HRC only includes transsexuals as lip service to its doctrine of inclusiveness and to make them appear to represent a larger constituency than they actually do. They have never done anything concrete to benefit transsexuals and have actually in some places tried to impede legislation that would benefit transsexuals. So if you’re going to not press an issue because you think it’s not winnable at this time, fine. But don’t claim to represent people or issue you don’t, especially when by doing so you hurt their interests. **Hastur** mentions transphobia in the gay community. There is a great deal of transphobia in the lesbian community as well, with things like “womyn-born-womyn” events, groups that refuse admission to anyone who can’t “put their dick in a drawer and slam it closed”, and the notion of the male-to-female transsexual as a “spy”. There are also women who insist that the mere existence of male-to-female transsexualism negatively reinforces stereotypes about women. These attitudes are extremely harmful, and are found most strongly (in my experience) in the most vocal segments of the gay and lesbian community. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2002, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/95 "2002-04-29T01:07:01Z")
Anti-transexual attitudes are something the gay community as a whole will have to work through, and likely will impede the movement for equal rights, and make gay leaders who don’t embrace transsexuals look like hypocrites. As for teh idea of the “gay lifestyle” itself, I made my first trip down to the “gayborhood” on Dallas, the Oak Lawn Crossroads. And what a scandalous display it was… all those gay people… they were _eating_ and _talking_ and some of them were even _dancing_. Truly, truly a threat to modern civilization, we are. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2002, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552/96 "2002-04-29T01:39:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\* > I suppose the closest identification I can make is lesbian, but there’s a lot of lesbians who would reject my claim to that label for any of a large number of reasons. It’s a little hard to identify with a group that would prefer to reject you (e.g. the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival and its rule about “womyn-born-womyn”). The so-called “gay community” has a lot of instances of rather nasty behavior toward transgenders despite all the claims of inclusiveness. > \*\* Thank you for mentioning the Michigan Womyn’s Fesival. I’ve never been, but while I was living in the Midwest I did hear about it. When I first heard that they only admitted “womyn-born-womyn”, I must admit that I didn’t care. It didn’t seem like a big deal to me. I can’t claim to understand transsexualism. As far as I know, I don’t even know any transsexuals in real life. However, here on the SDMB there are posters who happen to be transsexual who I have come to respect and admire. And now it seems like a bit more of a big deal that if _I_ wanted to go to the MWF I’d be welcomed in, but that these other Doper “womyn” who weren’t “born womyn” wouldn’t. Baby steps, baby steps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gay-lifestyle/105552.md?page=4)