# The gender division of professional work in the next few decades **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 21, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875 "2011-07-21T17:08:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/1 "2011-07-21T17:08:32Z")
Perhaps you’ve noticed that some jobs are seen as women’S work and that many men avoid them. For example, secretaries, nurses, dental hygienists and paralegals are overwhelmingly women and few men enroll in such programs. Those are all jobs where someone assists someone else. That someone else used to predominantly be a man in the case of an executive, a doctor, a dentist or a lawyer, respectively. The job of secretary used to be filled with men but as more women moved into that occupation, men deserted it. I don’t know if the same thing happened with dental hygienists and paralegals. Some time from now, the majority of doctors, dentists and lawyers will be women. Will we see men desert those professions as well? Will those professions see a reduction in income and status? Will bright men looking for a professional career pretty much only go into engineering, computers and business? Just to make it clear and to preempt any thread-hijacking criticism, I have nothing against women becoming professionals. If anything, it’s to my personal advantage that there be many young female lawyers around. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/2 "2011-07-22T01:20:44Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Some time from now, the majority of doctors, dentists and lawyers will be women. Will we see men desert those professions as well? Will those professions see a reduction in income and status? Probably not IMHO. First, those are innately difficult, high education, high skill professions and are unlikely to become low pay, low status jobs barring robotics becoming so good it can supplant them, which is far off. Second, anti-woman sexism is far less than it once was. And third, as I see it those older jobs didn’t become low status because women took them, women took them because the jobs became low status and women generally care much less about that compared to men. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Will bright men looking for a professional career pretty much only go into engineering, computers and business? Engineering and computers will remain male dominated indefinitely since the majority of women prefer jobs that involve people or living things. And no, that isn’t an insult to women; neurology or biochemistry isn’t exactly low skill work. Being a lawyer and medicine are you’ll note professions that involve either dealing with people socially or biology, which is probably a major reason for women being attracted to them in numbers no that sexism isn’t keeping them out. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/3 "2011-07-22T01:21:33Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Just to make it clear and to preempt any thread-hijacking criticism, I have nothing against women becoming professionals. If anything, it’s to my personal advantage that there be many young female lawyers around. Why, are you a con? ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/4 "2011-07-22T15:25:00Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Perhaps you’ve noticed that some jobs are seen as women’S work and that many men avoid them. > > Some time from now, the majority of doctors, dentists and lawyers will be women. Will we see men desert those professions as well? Will those professions see a reduction in income and status? > . It is already happening. Women are already at, or near, being the majority of students in professional schools such as law school, medical school, dentistry, veterinarian school, etc. Being an attorney, a doctor, a veterinarian, or a dentist will very soon be, if not already, considered to be\*\* “women’s work”\*\*. Additionally, the majority of all graduate students already are female. Moreover, the majority of all undergraduate students are female. Since manufacturing jobs are becoming extinct, and since less and less males are going into the military, I have no idea what young males are doing these days. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/5 "2011-07-22T15:40:51Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Being an attorney, a doctor, a veterinarian, or a dentist will very soon be, if not already, considered to be\*\* “women’s work”\*\*. :rolleyes: > [@Susanann](#): > > Since manufacturing jobs are becoming extinct, and since less and less males are going into the military, \*\*I have no idea \*\*what young males are doing these days. Oh come on now. I’m sure you have a guess. Please share. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/6 "2011-07-22T16:21:13Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > Why, are you a con? Worse, in a couple of months I’ll be a lawyer. > [@Susanann](#): > > I have no idea what young males are doing these days. /b/ /s/ ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/7 "2011-07-23T14:36:58Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > :rolleyes: > Oh come on now. I’m sure you have a guess. Please share. Why are you so fascinated with me? Why are you so attracted to me? Why do you post nonsensical meaningless comments to me, for me, everywhere I post something. Instead of ruining or trying to hijack every topic that I post on, why dont you just start your own topic about your attraction for me? I am NOT interested in you at all! Let it go! Get a life! Move on! ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/8 "2011-07-24T07:53:06Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > It is already happening. **Women are already at, or near, being the majority of students in professional schools such as law school, medical school, dentistry, veterinarian school, etc. \*\* > Being an attorney, a doctor, a veterinarian, or a dentist will very soon be, if not already, considered to be “women’s work”**. \*\* > > Additionally, the majority of all graduate students already are female. > > Moreover, the majority of all undergraduate students are female. > > Since manufacturing jobs are becoming extinct, and since less and less males are going into the military, I have no idea what young males are doing these days. Bolding mine. 1. There is a world of a difference between “being in law school” and having a “law degree” and finally you know actually being a lawyer. You don’t become a lawyer by getting a law degree. Ditto med school 2)Indeed in law over the past few years out rate for young lawyer has been noted that the dropout rate (which is already brutal) is much higher for women than men. Fewer women become Senior Associates and Partners. I am not arguing against the theory that law or medicine will become a female dominated field, merely that what you state dose not support the same. ’ ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/9 "2011-07-24T08:04:38Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > It is already happening. **Women are already at, or near, being the majority of students in professional schools such as law school, medical school, dentistry, veterinarian school, etc. \*\* > Being an attorney, a doctor, a veterinarian, or a dentist will very soon be, if not already, considered to be “women’s work”**. \*\* > > Additionally, the majority of all graduate students already are female. > > Moreover, the majority of all undergraduate students are female. > > Since manufacturing jobs are becoming extinct, and since less and less males are going into the military, I have no idea what young males are doing these days. Bolding mine. 1. There is a world of a difference between “being in law school” and having a “law degree” and finally you know actually being a lawyer. You don’t become a lawyer by getting a law degree. Ditto med school 2)Indeed in law over the past few years out rate for young lawyer has been noted that the dropout rate (which is already brutal) is much higher for women than men. Fewer women become Senior Associates and Partners. I am not arguing against the theory that law or medicine will become a female dominated field, merely that what you state dose not support the same. ’ ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/10 "2011-07-24T14:03:40Z")
As of a few years ago, medicine had a gender divide: surgeons were far more likely to be men, while women were more numerous in family practice and internal medicine. A female internalist I knew believed that this was at least partially because of the way the residencies were scheduled: the surgeons pretty much had to either be single, or have a full-time stay-at-home spouse. (I thought my friend’s residency schedule was absolutely insane, so I can’t imagine what the surgeons must have been going through). She allowed that a woman with a stay-at-home husband could have done fine in a surgery residency, but female MD’s might have status issues with a full-time stay-at-home husband, unless he was someone like Lance Armstrong or John Lennon. So most female surgeons were single when they did their residencies. Which tended to limit their numbers. However, a friend of mine whose wife just started a residency said there are two married women in her class who have stay-at-home husbands, so that stigma may be going away. (If it does, it will be interesting to see if another cultural divide in medicine lessens as well: according to my internalist friend, surgeons tend to see patients the way a mechanic sees a car (‘roll it in, slap a new part on, ship it out’), while family practitioners get to know their patients more.) Unrelated to medicine: the office I work in recently filled two jobs that had always been held by women with males (chief of staff and office manager). ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/11 "2011-07-24T17:37:39Z")
I think that predicting such things based on men’s attitudes towards status is outdated nowadays. Who gets what education and who gets hired for what job nowadays is heavily affected by libtard policies implemented by increasingly female bureaucrats “in positions of authority”. Doesn’t even matter if we are talking about government institutions, educational institutions, corporations or military. Libtard infestation is pretty heavy everywhere. When this regime eventually implodes, presumably there will be denazification type backlash with “women and minorities hit hardest”. But that is not going to happen any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/12 "2011-07-24T17:58:43Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > 1. There is a world of a difference between “being in law school” and having a “law degree” and finally you know actually being a lawyer. You don’t become a lawyer by getting a law degree. Agreed. > [@](#): > > Ditto med school Strongly disagree. I know plenty of people with law degrees who aren’t working as lawyers, but the very few MD’s I know who’ve never practiced usually have chosen not to. E.g., some decide to become researchers, which doesn’t require an internship/residency. A big reason there are so many people with law degrees who don’t practice is the glut of lawyers. The demand/supply ratio for doctors is much higher, except for certain locations and specialties. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/13 "2011-07-24T19:34:39Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Strongly disagree. I know plenty of people with law degrees who aren’t working as lawyers, but the very few MD’s I know who’ve never practiced usually have chosen not to. I actually came in to make this point as well; the portion of medical students that drop out or end up not practicing medicine in some respect (and let’s not include professional researchers in that group) is very small. However, the number that choose to take significant time off, usually for family reasons, is pretty significant and female doctors are much more likely to do that. So, even though the sex ratio of graduating physicians is tipping towards women, the hours worked might be even or tilt slightly towards men. There was a recent article in the New York Times on this subject, but at the moment I am not able to locate it. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/14 "2011-07-25T08:37:45Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > It is already happening. \*\*Women are already at, or near, being the majority \*\*of students in professional schools such as law school, medical school, dentistry, veterinarian school, etc. > > Additionally, the **majority of all graduate students already are female**. > > Moreover, **the majority of all undergraduate students are female**. (Bolding is mine. JBDivmstr) These are pretty bold statements, and you state them as if they are _ **fact** _. Can you provide a cite, please? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/15 "2011-07-25T09:11:54Z")
Well, women have become the majority of students in college for a couple of decades. [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html) [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html) [Educational attainment in the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States#Gender) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/16 "2011-07-25T09:16:54Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#): > > These are pretty bold statements, and you state them as if they are _ **fact** _. Can you provide a cite, please? :dubious: That does sound like what I’ve been hearing over the years. [Here’s](http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2005/equity/Section8.asp) a 2004 NCES document that mentions that women have passed men as graduate & undergraduate students. > [@](#): > > A majority of undergraduates are female. > > The proportion of the undergraduates who were female increased from the minority to the majority of students between 1970 and 2000; in 1970, 42 percent of all undergraduates were female, while in 2000, 56 percent were female (indicator 25). In part, this reflects an increase in the numbers of young women who enter college immediately after completing high school, but it also reflects a sizable number of older women enrolled in school (Digest of Education Statistics 2002, NCES 2003-060). Since the late 1970s, at least half of all part-time students have been female, and since 1985, a majority of full-time students have been female as well (figure I). In 2000, females accounted for 55 percent of full-time enrollment and 58 percent of part-time enrollment. > Females make up the majority of graduate, but not first-professional, students. > > Females have made even larger gains at the graduate level than at the undergraduate level. In 1970, 39 percent of all graduate students were female, a slightly lower proportion than at the undergraduate level, but in 2000, 58 percent of graduate students were female, a slightly higher proportion than at the undergraduate level And [here’s](http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-09-15-womenphd14_st_N.htm) a story about how women have passed men in terms of doctorates earned. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/17 "2011-07-25T09:50:03Z")
When I started working in law in private practice over twenty years ago over half my peer baby lawyers in my firm were female. Unlike the men, none of the women now work in private practice, and probably about half don’t work as lawyers as such at all. They all either dropped out altogether or moved into the type of role where they had less direct responsibility and could work part time or easily take long periods of time off without losing client bases etc. I don’t know how it will all pan out in what remains a rapidly changing area but at the moment I would say there will be a heavy bias towards women as junior lawyers in private practice, and as in house lawyers in the public service or insurance companies and so on. The highly competitive and dog eat dog world of senior career private practice lawyers will have a heavy bias towards male. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/18 "2011-07-25T10:15:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And third, as I see it those older jobs didn’t become low status because women took them, women took them because the jobs became low status and women generally care much less about that compared to men. It’s not that they “cared less.” it’s that they had fewer options. I don’t think that these days professions, even those dominated by women on a numbers level, are likely to be subject to gender classification. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/19 "2011-07-25T11:46:19Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s not that they “cared less.” it’s that they had fewer options. > > I don’t think that these days professions, even those dominated by women on a numbers level, are likely to be subject to gender classification. I actually think the “fewer options” thing explains why there are more women undergraduates. A man without a college degree has a much wider range of options for decent-paying employment than a woman: the trades remain largely closed to women for all sorts of reasons. So a woman is choosing between college and working low-end retail/food service/light clerical type stuff. A man is choosing between college and working in electrical work, construction, HVAC, auto mechanics, plumbing, etc. A lot of those jobs pay as much as white-collar alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875/20 "2011-07-25T12:46:08Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > When I started working in law in private practice over twenty years ago over half my peer baby lawyers in my firm were female. Unlike the men, none of the women now work in private practice, and probably about half don’t work as lawyers as such at all. They all either dropped out altogether or moved into the type of role where they had less direct responsibility and could work part time or easily take long periods of time off without losing client bases etc. > > I don’t know how it will all pan out in what remains a rapidly changing area but at the moment I would say there will be a heavy bias towards women as junior lawyers in private practice, and as in house lawyers in the public service or insurance companies and so on. The highly competitive and dog eat dog world of senior career private practice lawyers will have a heavy bias towards male. I agree. And although I am a lot junior to you, it has been my own experience as well. Of my own collegue and friends who went into litigation, the vast majority of females have dropped out, while most of the men have not. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gender-division-of-professional-work-in-the-next-few-decades/589875.md?page=2)