The Genetic Makeup Of Modern Europe (No, This Isn't A Thinly-Veiled Bit Of Racism)

I have two separate theories -

Originally, the first group moved into what was previously uninhabited (or Neanderthal) territory. So a small group of people are responsible for a general population. As they spread and expand, probably quickly, hitting previously untapped resources like abundant wildlife they fill the land. Anyone seeking to expand into there would be unlikely to displace them, unless they came with better tech and better weapons. Even then, they need exceedingly good weapons because an invader group would be outnumbered.

So it’s likely that the original inhabitants of say, North European plains and then Britain and Iberia were from a small source. Then they get overrun by the next wave - say, those with bows, or bronze weapons. or horses, etc., etc. But each such successful group also likely started with a small group that discovered something new and met with great success.

However, this pure genetic makeup of areas will be diluted by trade and war, both by taking advantages of the local entertainment and intermarriage. So the more cosmopolitan areas will se a much larger mixing of assorted source genes, while the “backwoods” would continue to have a more pure version of the original inhabitants. The Roman empire and subsequent mixing by trade and conquest would follow on the heels of Hellenistic expansion and then be followed by assorted invasions and trade, up to and including Muslim invasions that reached from the east to Vienna and from the south to southern France.

But each of those genetic analysis companies probably has limited means to track full family history. (i.e. none) they can go by generally published articles, but that’s about it. I suppose basically all they can do is rely on what distribution they see from the less cosmopolitan areas of the world - i.e. if our Basque village samples commonly have this more than found elsewhere, it must be a Basque trait. If many samples from Cambodia and surrounding areas have this, it must indicate Cambodian ancestry. If we see this in Greece and Sicily and Iraq, perhaps we can blame Alexander… But it does not guarantee any degree of geographical accuracy. Who knows who wandered where 300 years ago.

As for reliability of family trees - if anyone has lived in a small town, they would understand. In a small town - and they all were, until the advent of the train and auto added distance to anonymity - everyone knows everyone else’s business. If there were pedigree errors, then odds are the cuckold husband knew but chose not to deal with them. Shotgun marriages were common, so it was harder to escape the consequences of premarital sex. I would be more suspect of the family tree in the last 3 or 4 generations than earlier. There’s another factor, where a single mother brings a child into the new marriage. That possibly gets glossed over in some earlier family trees.

(In going through my family tree for rural England in the 1700’s, I find a lot of marriages followed by a birth a few months later (or even, preceding). Possibly not so much shotgun as a matter of “making it official” now that there’s a baby in the picture. )

I didn’t say that.

I didn’t say that.

Your questions don’t seem to have anything to do with what I actually said.

I’m sure that’s what he was implying, but it’s a non sequitur to Chief Pedant’s remark, which I’m pretty sure was a reference to the fact that no one can really be sure that none of their ancestors was the product of extramarital sex. Studies suggest that 1-2% of children are not the offspring of the assumed partner.

Sentinelese may be confident their ancestors were Sentinelese, but not of their individual identity.

I find it vanishingly unlikely. It only takes one outbreeding event to ensure that the future inhabitants of a village or region are not of 100% local ancestry. However strong the tendency for local matches, such events will certainly occur with some frequency over the centuries, and even more so during times of war and instability.

I think the case you are thinking of is “Cheddar Man”. The significance of this find is exaggerated - the researchers would have found people with the same mtDNA in any village in Europe. The implication that the current inhabitants are direct descendants of the ancient inhabitants, while entirely possible, is not borne out by the evidence. All we know is that some of the current inhabitants share a maternal-line ancestor with Cheddar Man (as, quite possibly, do I).

In any case, there is no reason to believe that Cornwall or Somerset was genetically isolated at any time in history. Maritime trade links make it more likely, not less, that outside genes would be contributed to the gene pool.

That’s pretty much mathematically impossible. In 1000 AD the population of the British Isles was less than 2 million, but 40 generations ago you would have had more than one trillion ancestors. Of course, pedigree collapse means that most of those ancestors are duplicates, but still, if you are from the British Isles you are descended from essentially all of the people lived there in 1000 AD who have modern descendants (although you don’t necessarily have genetic material from all of them).

Not only that, but the concept of “100% British Isles” doesn’t even make any sense from a historical perspective. The only way it would is if you declared that at some arbitrary date, everyone living there was “100% British Isles”. But that’s just “true by definition” and the definition is arbitrary.

I’m not sure what you’re saying. You realize the North Sentinel Island is a close 60,000 year-old society, locked tighter than a vault genetically by 100% isolation from everyone else? Married, I think they shot the last missionaries or shot at them anyway. There’s no church there as we know it.

I’m saying that a Sentinelese may not be sure that the guy he thinks is his grandfather is actually his grandfather, which is what Chief Pedant’s remark was about.

The Sentinelese have certainly not been a “closed society for the past 60,000 years.” According to the most recent information, the Andamans were colonized about 26,000 years ago during the last Glacial Maximum. You’re assuming that the present isolation of the Sentinelese has prevailed for thousands of years, which is unlikely.They have been hostile since attempts by contact by the British in the late 1800s, but we don’t know what they were like before that. The Sentinelese could well have been in contact with other Andaman islanders before Westerners arrived, and the Andamese in general may have had some contact with South Asians. So the genetic isolation is unlikely to have been as complete as you allege.

Sorry, 60,000 was the correct answer.

a pre-Neolithic island tribe – and have not had any meaningful contact for up to 60,000 years.

https://www.historicmysteries.com/north-sentinel-island/

:dubious: You’re citing a website called “Historic Mysteries” as authoritative? The allegation of 60,000 years has been made but is outdated (and IMO extremely implausible in any case).

See Chaubey and Endicott (2013):

The Andaman Islanders in a Regional Genetic Context: Reexamining the Evidence for an Early Peopling of the Archipelago from South Asia

And a date of 26,000 years for the divergence doesn’t mean they have been entirely isolated since then either.

Their section devoted “Paranormal” phenomenon is quite interesting:

And since the Sentinelese have been uncontacted for decades, we’d have no way of checking their genetic history anyway.

Another thing to keep in mind when talking about our ancestors is that we don’t get exactly 25%% of our DNA from your grandparents. As you go back through the generations, the chances of you getting no autosomal DNA* at all from a randomly picked ancestor becomes non-zero at about 7 generation back, and then approaches 100% at 15 generations. Fifteen generations is only about 375 years, assuming 25 years for a generation.

*not talking about mtDNA or sex-chromosomal DNA here.

ETA: Excepting pedigree collapse, which gives ancestors who show up in your family tree more than once a higher probability of leaving some of their DNA.

I’ll cite another, there are dozens more to choose from.

For an estimated 60,000 years, North Sentinel Island has been home to a fiercely independent tribe that has violently rejected contact with the outside world.

https://www.atlasandboots.com/north-sentinel-island/

Believed to number anywhere from 50 to 400, the Sentinelese have lived in isolation on the island for 60,000 years, resisting attempts by authorities and anthropologists to study their culture and integrate them into the modern world.

60,000 believe it.

Oh yes, it would definitely depend on that, but it’s not really arbitrary for the point we’re talking about here. We’re talking about genetic ancestry tests, not absolute incontrovertible truth. The tests are based on comparison with records from current populations, and they are largely self-reporting their ancestry, so that makes the results appear more “certain” than they really are. And if there was one non-British or Irish ancestor in there 600 years ago (esp if that person was from a nearby country) then that person is very unlikely to show up among all the other info, esp if they were from, say, France or Germany. If everyone in Britain and Ireland has at least one extremely distant ancestor from France, then that tiny amount of French ancestry has already been included as a feature of British ancestry. It would take more than one 600-years-removed ancestor for them to affect the test results.

I’m not saying it would be common for people to be 100% British Isles - it would be very rare indeed - and I’m certainly not saying they would all come from the same village or region, so that’s arguing against a point I didn’t make. But it’s mathematically likely that there are some people whose ancestors, by chance, only married other people also from England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, (not “one village”), except for one or two nearby intermarriages several hundred years ago that wouldn’t show up in the results.

The way you guys are talking it would also be mathematically impossible for someone to be 80% British and Irish, but that’s what my test said, and my ancestors are from one of the biggest, most diverse cities in the world, which makes me think that people from more isolated regions will get higher results.

Is the test 100% accurate? Of course not, and I think I made that clear in my post when I mentioned one of its limitations. We’re talking about genetic testing, that’s all, and the original question was about what ancestry people can claim.

It seems like you guys are arguing with stuff I haven’t actually said.

I think the problem is you didn’t say what you actually meant, and we’re picking up on what you actually posted. It sounds like you are saying that it wouldn’t surprise you if the genetic tests showed someone to be “100% British Isles”. What you said was:

Emphasis added. Then you added in that part of Cheddar man as if it supported that conclusions, and as someone pointed it, it just means that someone today may have had him as one of their many, many ancestors from way back when.

Anyway, not harm no foul since you have no clarified what you meant.

Surely you’ve been around here long enough to know that citing random blogs doesn’t establish anything at all. You’ll need to cite peer reviewed research published in an authoritative scientific journal (which I did) to back it up. And again, even if the population diverged that long ago it doesn’t mean it has been totally isolated all that time.

As I’ve said, the 60,000 year figure has been claimed (and apparently frequently repeated in on line sources) but is not supported by more recent detailed research. Just because it’s repeated over and over doesn’t mean it’s correct.

It’s not surprising that the 60,000 year figure shows up often in the popular press or web sites, since it wasn’t that long ago that it was generally thought to be true. I seem to remember the popular Geneticist, Spencer Wells, making that claim about certain “negrito” populations off the coast of South Asia about 10 years ago or so. Plus, it makes a much better story!

I’ve had a quick look on the 23andme forums. I’m not sure if you can view this without logging in, but here’s a link: DNA Genetic Testing For Health, Ancestry And More - 23andMe One person on there writes that she’s “99 or 97.2 percent Irish, depending on which company’s report you are using,” And another: DNA Genetic Testing For Health, Ancestry And More - 23andMe Here a woman claims to be 96.7% Korean. Obviously they could be lying, but the first one at least has an air of veracity given her mentioning differences between different company’s reports (she also later says her son is 99% Japanese, but it looks like she meant her husband - she asked if she could edit the post and mentions her husband’s ancestry rather than her son’s).

So there you go. That’s pretty damn close to 100%. Are there people that can claim 100% of some ancestry or other based on genetic testing kits? Not based on absolute truth, as some of you have chosen to interpret the question, but on the way these tests are conducted? Well, there are people who get so close to that that I suspect there may well be a 100%er out there too, but I’m not going to search the forums all evening.

Well, I did say that after talking about the way 23andme do their tests, and the thread was about genetic tests, but yeah, this being the Dope I probably should have been more specific. :slight_smile:

ETA @ Colibri
You’re using DNA evidence to describe why, a tribe that has never been tested for DNA and lived in isolation, couldn’t have a 60,000 history.
That’s a pretty big jump there.