# The Ghostship in Oakland, California **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782 "2016-12-03T22:53:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/41 "2016-12-04T20:52:12Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > The confirmed death toll is now 30 and only about 1/5 of it has been inspected. [The AP says 24](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WAREHOUSE_PARTY_FIRE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-12-04-13-56-57). ETA: [This CBS San Francisco site does also say 30](http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/12/04/oakland-ghost-ship-warehouse-fire-toll-continues-to-rise/). ☹ ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/42 "2016-12-04T21:09:49Z")
I have a Facebook friend who lives in the Bay Area and is part of their arts community. He’s also a frequent poster, and I was concerned because he hadn’t posted since Friday. I just found out that he’s OK, and he doesn’t know anyone who was involved in the disaster. There will probably be quite a few Gofundme pages popping up, because many, if not most, of the victims, living or dead, don’t have life or health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/43 "2016-12-05T00:07:19Z")
Up to 33 dead: > **[Names of seven victims released in Oakland fire; criminal investigators on scene](https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-oakland-fire-20161204-story.html#nt=oft06a-1la1)** > > Alameda County prosecutors have assigned criminal investigators to probe the fire at an Oakland warehouse that claimed at least 33 lives. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/44 "2016-12-05T00:39:30Z")
Looking at the pictures of the interior of that place it’s hard to believe that place didn’t burn to the ground dozens of time before this. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/45 "2016-12-05T00:51:24Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Looking at the pictures of the interior of that place it’s hard to believe that place didn’t burn to the ground dozens of time before this. Most places only burn to the ground _once_. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/46 "2016-12-05T00:56:09Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Was the place just supposed to be a ‘work’ space or were people living there? Waaaaaay back when I was involved in the Chicago art scene there were a _lot_ of warehouse “workspaces” that had people camping out in them, even if living there was forbidden. Because when you are truly a starving artist, and a lot of young artists are, you just don’t have the money for a “real” apartment and the temptation to shelter in your workspace, or just _someplace_ you can squat, is very strong. Not that it’s limited to just artists - I’ve known commercial pilots on the small-scale end of general aviation who lived in hangars next to their airplanes, and back in my cobbler days some of my coworkers crashed in the shop for awhile when they were between formal housing situations. This is _common_ in big cities due to the intersection of low-wage work and high housing prices. > [@Little\_Pig](#): > > Also, this must have been one fast moving fire. Yep. Crowded interior spaces can flame up amazingly fast, and fill up with opaque smoke even faster. There are videos on line showing both demonstrations of how fast this can happen, and video from actual disasters. > [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Had I seen the Ghostship’s website, or been there myself, a few days ago, I would have thought it was a really cool place. Now I just see it as the deathtrap it was. ☹ Yeah - I like complicated interior spaces, but being older and wiser now I view them with much more suspicion, especially when filled with people. > [@](#): > > I also heard earlier that identifying some of them may be challenging because they are transgendered and may use more than one identity. Probably also pretty badly burned/charred - I suspect some will be identified form dental/medical records as well as DNA. I heard on the radio coming home that local authorities are asking family and friends of the missing to hold onto things like combs, hairbrushes, and toothbrushes that can hold DNA to use later for identification purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/47 "2016-12-05T00:58:36Z")
[Here’s a story](http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/12/04/oakland-warehouse-fire-who-is-the-man-behind-the-ghost-ship/) about Derick Ion, the man behind Ghost Ship. The short version: he’s selfish and crazy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/48 "2016-12-05T01:14:48Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Most places only burn to the ground _once_. Then they fall over, then they sink into the swamp. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/49 "2016-12-05T01:20:08Z")
So who are the other responsible people? From the above article: > [@](#): > > Almena had rented out his warehouse for a dance party and apparently wasn’t at the property Friday night Who did he rent it to? And then there is the owner, Ng. He sounds Vietnamese–perhaps a Vietnamese refugee? Anyone find any information on him? I find it hard to believe he didn’t know what was going on. Any thoughts how criminal charges and lawsuits are going to end up? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/50 "2016-12-05T01:43:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Not that it’s limited to just artists - I’ve known commercial pilots on the small-scale end of general aviation who lived in hangars next to their airplanes, and back in my cobbler days some of my coworkers crashed in the shop for awhile when they were between formal housing situations. Hell, add [Members of Congress](http://www.rollcall.com/news/home/pay-freeze-era-living-house-rent-free-ads) to the list. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/51 "2016-12-05T02:06:22Z")
Near as I can tell, this is the building in question: https://www.google.com/maps/embed?pb=%213m2%212sen%214v0%216m8%211m7%211sQLG_yLa1ERdZ_l-znbaw9w%212m2%211d37.7775651%212d-122.2268322%213f270.0%214f9.0%215f0.75 The building on the right (blue) is 1309 31st AVE (not ST) - it is a car repair shop, and one of the few with a visible street number. Visit the Ghostship link above- it lists the address as 1305 31st Ave (not St) as the site of all this [del]cool[/del] “hip” stuff. I counted one drum set, 6 guitars, at least three old (read:“free”) upright pianos, at least 3 console organs (ditto), several speakers, one ancient turntable (it may have been a record player) Q: Could they not find any more dried-out flammable stuff to cram into the place? Answer: See photo - the junk is piled up on the sidewalk. Got old stuff and don’t want to pay dump fees? Here’s the address… Also: There is NOT man door on the front - just a truck-sized roll-up door. IOW: completely worthless building. The hipsters deciding to hold weekly parties (now called Raves) in the place had to be a godsend for the owner. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/52 "2016-12-05T02:13:56Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Looks like a theme restaurant gone mad. The rug really tied it together. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/53 "2016-12-05T02:55:38Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Why is this in the Pit? Normally, this kind of story goes in MPSIMS. It avoids the MPSIMS rules against political or religious hijacking or other kinds of hijacking in breaking news stories, for one. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/54 "2016-12-05T02:59:55Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Near as I can tell, this is the building in question: > > [Google Maps](https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7775651,-122.2268322,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQLG_yLa1ERdZ_l-znbaw9w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en) > > The building on the right (blue) is 1309 31st AVE (not ST) - it is a car repair shop, and one of the few with a visible street number. > > Visit the Ghostship link above- it lists the address as 1305 31st Ave (not St) as the site of all this [del]cool[/del] “hip” stuff. > > I counted one drum set, 6 guitars, at least three old (read:“free”) upright pianos, at least 3 console organs (ditto), several speakers, one ancient turntable (it may have been a record player) > Q: Could they not find any more dried-out flammable stuff to cram into the place? > Answer: See photo - the junk is piled up on the sidewalk. Got old stuff and don’t want to pay dump fees? Here’s the address… > > Also: There is NOT man door on the front - just a truck-sized roll-up door. > > IOW: completely worthless building. > > The hipsters deciding to hold weekly parties (now called Raves) in the place had to be a godsend for the owner. You’re kind of an asshole, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/55 "2016-12-05T03:09:32Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > You’re kind of an asshole, aren’t you? What? For pointing out the obvious? The place, no doubt, was interesting from the photos but it looks like a pile of kindling and tinder. It’s packed full of dry flammable stuff. To hold a rave in a place like that is foolhardy. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/56 "2016-12-05T03:13:45Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Near as I can tell, this is the building in question . . Yes, that’s it. I recognize some of the other nearby buildings from TV news reports, particularly the car place next door and the Wendy’s across the street. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/57 "2016-12-05T14:37:24Z")
Real estate people complain that the government gets too much in their business and wants all sorts of permits for any building to be anything. Then something like this happens. That guy is facing a mountain of lawsuits and government fines, and he deserves to lose every fucking penny he ever had. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/58 "2016-12-05T14:45:50Z")
The news is, predictably, [very bad](http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/12/05/ghost-ship-fire-search-halted-by-crumbling-walls/): > [@](#): > > Workers were forced to abandon their recovery efforts early Monday inside the burned out remains of a two-story warehouse where a weekend fire killed at least 36 people with a another 24 or more still missing. > The search was forced to be abandoned because the structure had been unstable and unsafe for search crews. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/59 "2016-12-05T15:13:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What? For pointing out the obvious? > > The place, no doubt, was interesting from the photos but it looks like a pile of kindling and tinder. It’s packed full of dry flammable stuff. To hold a rave in a place like that is foolhardy. The place looked really cool inside, but using it for parties was beyond stupid. You need fire protection, proper exits, wiring per code. Someone has to be the adult in running these places. It’s one thing to live in your own death trap, but when you let others in, you got to think about safety. There’s a reason there are fire codes for public buildings, and this is it! I have a friend that had two “spaces” that were really cool and packed with even more stuff than this one. They both burned, but at least no one was hurt. Just a lot of cool stuff up in smoke. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/60 "2016-12-05T15:38:14Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > You need fire protection, proper exits, wiring per code. You’re right, of course. But those things would be prohibitively expensive in an old warehouse building - and probably in most any funky space where an event like this would actually happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782.md?page=4)