# The Ghostship in Oakland, California **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782 "2016-12-03T22:53:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/61 "2016-12-05T15:44:46Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > You’re right, of course. But those things would be prohibitively expensive in an old warehouse building - and probably in most any funky space where an event like this would actually happen. It pisses me off. You trust people to know what they are doing with bars and clubs and other venues where there is a crowd. An individual clubgoer has no way to inspect these buildings before going there. I went to an “underground” club in LA back in the 80s. Was I taking my life in my hands, or did the organizers know what they were doing? I don’t know! But this place was obviously bad. When even the art crowd is complaining that the place is a death trap, it should never have gotten to this point. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/62 "2016-12-05T15:59:51Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Real estate people complain that the government gets too much in their business and wants all sorts of permits for any building to be anything. Then something like this happens. In aviation, it’s said that FAA regulations are written in blood, i.e. any given regulation generally exists because some tragedy happened in the past, and it was written in an effort to prevent such a tragedy from happening again. I suppose the same could be said for building codes/inspections. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/63 "2016-12-05T18:26:48Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > It pisses me off. You trust people to know what they are doing with bars and clubs and other venues where there is a crowd. An individual clubgoer has no way to inspect these buildings before going there. I went to an “underground” club in LA back in the 80s. Was I taking my life in my hands, or did the organizers know what they were doing? I don’t know! > > But this place was obviously bad. When even the art crowd is complaining that the place is a death trap, it should never have gotten to this point. That may be a bit naive. Wouldn’t it be out of character for a group that is ignoring the law to be proactive in enforcing the law? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/64 "2016-12-05T18:40:36Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > The rug really tied it together. Say what you want about the tenets of Artistic Raves, Dude, at least it’s an ethos. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/65 "2016-12-05T18:52:36Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > When even the art crowd is complaining that the place is a death trap, it should never have gotten to this point. And when did they complain about it? It sounds like hundreds of people had attended parties there and that knew people lived there–but didn’t do any complaining to authorities. Death toll now 36. They have temporarily stopped recovery operations because of structure instability. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/66 "2016-12-05T19:04:29Z")
Who is at fault, the owner or the lessee? From listening to news reports there was one guy that leased the whole building, which was not zoned/permitted (who knows) as residential. So it must have been the lessee that was subleasing spaces in the warehouse out. Anybody know the truth? Horrible tragic shame. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/67 "2016-12-05T19:54:36Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > In aviation, it’s said that FAA regulations are written in blood, i.e. any given regulation generally exists because some tragedy happened in the past, and it was written in an effort to prevent such a tragedy from happening again. > > I suppose the same could be said for building codes/inspections. [Yep.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Society_of_Safety_Engineers) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/68 "2016-12-05T19:57:53Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Who is at fault, the owner or the lessee? From listening to news reports there was one guy that leased the whole building, which was not zoned/permitted (who knows) as residential. So it must have been the lessee that was subleasing spaces in the warehouse out. True. But if you or I were the owner we would be keeping an eye on the building to be sure we know what is going on there. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/69 "2016-12-05T20:33:42Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > True. But if you or I were the owner we would be keeping an eye on the building to be sure we know what is going on there. If you ask too many questions, or take too close an interest, you lose your tenant and therefore the income from the property. Sometimes it’s just better to shut your eyes and keep your hand out for the rent payment and pretend nothing bad is ever going to happen. As long as the self-absorbed hipster art-twat avoids burning the place down, everything is hunky and dory and profitable. A lot of management is the art of deluding yourself bad things will never happen because you have no intention of making any allowances for them. Hence, uninsured drivers, crappy system security design leading to huge data leak hacks, absentee landlords, grossly negligent parents, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/70 "2016-12-05T20:35:01Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > If you ask too many questions, or take too close an interest, you lose your tenant and therefore the income from the property. Sometimes it’s just better to shut your eyes and keep your hand out for the rent payment and pretend nothing bad is ever going to happen. As long as the self-absorbed hipster art-twat avoids burning the place down, everything is hunky and dory and profitable. > > A lot of management is the art of deluding yourself bad things will never happen because you have no intention of making any allowances for them. Hence, uninsured drivers, absentee landlords, neglected children, etc. You just described a very horrible owner, who is basically going to wind up finding a lot of illegal stuff happening sooner or later–and then be on the hook for it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/71 "2016-12-05T20:42:10Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > [Here’s a story](http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/12/04/oakland-warehouse-fire-who-is-the-man-behind-the-ghost-ship/) about Derick Ion, the man behind Ghost Ship. The short version: he’s selfish and crazy. [Here is another story](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4000126/The-arrogant-man-illegal-artist-enclave-33-died-fire-checks-hotel-friends-claim-LAUGHED-warnings-condom-littered-commune-popular-drug-users-DEATH-TRAP.html) about this worthless Sack-O-Shit. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/72 "2016-12-05T20:44:40Z")
From what I can surmise from online reports: Owner: Chor N. Ng, who claims that the lessee told her that no one lived at the warehouse, but it was a collective of artists that worked there, sometimes, many of them through the night. Lessee: Derick Ion, referred to upthread as the owner, but was the lessee. He was the one that tweeted, that everything he had worked for was gone, and was glad that he and his family had been staying in a hotel when the fire broke out. He also had subleased space out in the warehouse. If people lived there, where was the bathroom? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/73 "2016-12-05T21:04:18Z")
I heard earlier today that the confirmed death toll is now 36 ☹ and that the recovery effort had to be suspended, AGAIN, because of the instability of the walls. In addition, in some places the ashes are estimated to be 10 feet deep. It has also been revealed that Derick Ion was indeed living in the warehouse with his wife and two children, who were all at a motel that night because of the party. :eek: They both have lengthy criminal records and CPS involvement, including custody loss (i.e. the kids were in foster care), mostly due to drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/74 "2016-12-05T21:31:26Z")
His name is **Derick Ion Almena** and a court will probably be assigning him legal representation. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/75 "2016-12-05T21:51:12Z")
When I first heard about this happening in an Artist loft/warehouse my first thoughts were kind of weird thinking back of the times I had been to parties in places just like that. But as more and more details come out I realize that the places I was at that were just like that, were nothing like that place. I had several artist friends who lived in a collective loft in LODO(lower downtown Denver) back before Coors field and the big gentrification. They did large art works, welding metal, big sculptures etc. It was a pretty cool place, basically for true starving artist types who couldn’t afford both a studio and an apartment, so they all lived coop style each having a small section of a huge warehouse for bed and work space. But every square foot was treasured. There were no piles of used Pianos around, unless someone’s art involved that, then I guess there would have been some. Anyway the thing that I’m reminded of looking at the pictures, is that at the place my friends had, there had just been a major fight between the artists, and the people who just wanted to look bohemian and act counter-culture. The wannabes had been kicked out, and they implemented rules almost like show and tell that you be able to demonstrate that you were working on something fairly regularly, or would be asked to leave to keep the to keep the atmosphere productive. It struck me as a little strange that a free spirited place like that would have “nanny rules” but looking at the new pictures, I totally understand what they were fighting against. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/76 "2016-12-05T22:08:08Z")
> **[Oakland warehouse fire: Who is the man behind the ‘Ghost Ship’?](https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/12/04/oakland-warehouse-fire-who-is-the-man-behind-the-ghost-ship/)** > > A disturbing picture of Derick Alemena, the Los Angeles and brainchild of the Ghost Ship live-work warehouse where 33 young people died in a fire, has quickly emerged on social media and in intervi… From Jeff Lichtman’s linked article: “Oakland building inspectors were familiar with the property and had visited the site just last month after a complaint, but they couldn’t get inside.” So they, what, went home? Try again in another month? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/77 "2016-12-05T22:34:11Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > [Oakland warehouse fire: Who is the man behind the 'Ghost Ship'](http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/12/04/oakland-warehouse-fire-who-is-the-man-behind-the-ghost-ship/) > > From Jeff Lichtman’s linked article: > “Oakland building inspectors were familiar with the property and had visited the site just last month after a complaint, but they couldn’t get inside.” > > So they, what, went home? Try again in another month? I expect in the next few days that we will find out whether **the owner** received written notifications from the city. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/78 "2016-12-05T22:39:36Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You just described a very horrible owner, who is basically going to wind up finding a lot of illegal stuff happening sooner or later–and then be on the hook for it. At what point are people accountable for their own agency? It’s tragic but is it the owner’s fault that the property was being misused? If I rent an apartment and sublet it to 20 other people is that my fault or the owner’s? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/79 "2016-12-05T22:55:29Z")
The Alameda county DA just reported that the remains of the warehouse is being investigated as a potential crime scene and if charges are filed, that they could range from murder to involuntary manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/80 "2016-12-05T22:56:59Z")
I suggest looking back at the civil lawsuits after the Station Nightclub fire (where 100 people died). For example: > **[The Station nightclub fire | Civil settlements](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire#Civil_settlements)** > > As of September 2008, at least $115 million in settlement agreements had been paid, or offered, to the victims or their families by various defendants.: > 1.In September 2008, The Jack Russell Tour Group Inc. offered $1 million in a settlement to survivors and victims' relatives, the maximum allowed under the band's insurance plan. | > 2.Club owners Jeffrey and Michael Derderian reached a settlement of $813,000 with survivors and victims' families in September 2008. | > 3.The State of Rhode Island a... I was amazed at the number of parties who were coerced into settling. So definitely the owner is going to be one of those held liable; and he probably has only $1 million or so liability policy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782.md?page=5)