# The Ghostship in Oakland, California **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 3, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782 "2016-12-03T22:53:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/101 "2016-12-06T16:51:10Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I don’t know. It just seems weird, it wasn’t some random “your number has come up” inspection, they were there because of a complaint. Seems like they could have tried another method of contacting the owner. I’m not blaming them- it just seems weird. I’m not discounting incompetence but it could just be normal bureaucratic backlog. All I’ve seen says there had been a complaint but not what the complaint was. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/102 "2016-12-06T16:53:12Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > This place reminds me of “Super Happy Fun Land” in Houston. Super Druggie Scum Land is what it really was. The place was less of a death trap than this was though. Damn. Hey, [Super Happy Fun Land](http://www.superhappyfunland.com/super_happy_calendar.htm) is still in business. On Polk Street, downtown–I think it moved from the Heights. Since it advertises as a venue, I’m pretty sure they have to meet _some_ standards. I haven’t been, although I’ve visited some “alternate” venues in my day. Alas, I missed the Krampus costume making party last night. But I’ll definitely hit the Pik-N-Pak Reunion at the end of the year; Ralph the Plumber’s seedy ice house was legendary. (Hey, it never burned!) Good times! ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/103 "2016-12-06T18:19:30Z")
[Chicago Reader, last July](https://issuu.com/chicago_reader/docs/070716-small). Chelsea Faith Dolan, a.k.a. Cherushii, one of the victims. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/104 "2016-12-06T18:23:28Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’m not discounting incompetence but it could just be normal bureaucratic backlog. All I’ve seen says there had been a complaint but not what the complaint was. Ten complaints over ten years according to that Daily [del]Fail[/del] Mail article. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/105 "2016-12-06T19:05:42Z")
[Here is the legal scoop](http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Murder-convictions-rare-for-owners-or-landlords-10701598.php) regarding who could be liable in the Ghost Ship fire. “One entity that will be off the hook is the city of Oakland, for failing to conduct an inspection that might have shut the building down. A 1963 state law shields local governments from liability for harm allegedly caused by not performing inspections.”. - WTF?!!? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/106 "2016-12-06T19:28:16Z")
I was surprised the building was only assessed at $86,000. I thought real estate in the Bay area is incredibly expensive: [http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Warehouse-leader-sorry-for-deadly-fire-but-10762598.php](http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Warehouse-leader-sorry-for-deadly-fire-but-10762598.php) ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/107 "2016-12-06T19:32:44Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > I was surprised the building was only assessed at $86,000. I thought real estate in the Bay area is incredibly expensive: > [http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Warehouse-leader-sorry-for-deadly-fire-but-10762598.php](http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Warehouse-leader-sorry-for-deadly-fire-but-10762598.php) Under Proposition 13, real estate is reassessed only when it is sold. Commercial property can go decades without changing hands. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/108 "2016-12-06T19:39:00Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Under Proposition 13, real estate is reassessed only when it is sold. Commercial property can go decades without changing hands. And there’s a work-around. All a company had to do was create a holding company for the property before Prop 13 was in effect. Then they sell, not the property, but the holding company to another company. Presto! The property has not changed hands and is not reassessed. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/109 "2016-12-06T19:45:14Z")
The article clearly states Ng purchased the property in 2007–and in 2008+ there was a big recession. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/110 "2016-12-06T19:49:04Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > “One entity that will be off the hook is the city of Oakland, for failing to conduct an inspection that might have shut the building down. A 1963 state law shields local governments from liability for harm allegedly caused by not performing inspections.” I don’t see a problem there. The law says owners must make sure buildings meet certain conditions and standards for each type of use. Building inspections are to ensure that compliance, not create it. IOW, a commercial building owner knows, or should know, full well what the requirements are, and meet them for health, safety, insurance and economic reasons. It isn’t, or shouldn’t be, a shell game of what an owner can get away with in the absence of frequent, diligent inspections. > [@Yllaria](#): > > And there’s a work-around. All a company had to do was create a holding company for the property before Prop 13 was in effect. Then they sell, not the property, but the holding company to another company. Presto! The property has not changed hands and is not reassessed. Reason #267 why Prop 13 may have been the worst piece of peepul-powurd legislation in US history. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/111 "2016-12-06T20:03:46Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Ten complaints over ten years according to that Daily [del]Fail[/del] Mail article. I’ll be interested to see what the complaints were and what actions were taken. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/112 "2016-12-06T20:27:59Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Ten complaints over ten years according to that Daily [del]Fail[/del] Mail article. > [@Loach](#): > > I’ll be interested to see what the complaints were and what actions were taken. Has the building been “the Ghost Ship” all that time? Or do the complaints extend to whatever was there before? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/113 "2016-12-06T22:52:05Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I think there may have been an allegation that he (or possibly his equipment) partially blocked the exit. Dunno if this was valid. When it happened, even before the lawsuits started, there were MULTIPLE reports that the cameraman was indeed blocking the exit. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/114 "2016-12-06T22:55:32Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Hey, [Super Happy Fun Land](http://www.superhappyfunland.com/super_happy_calendar.htm) is still in business. On Polk Street, downtown–I think it moved from the Heights. Since it advertises as a venue, I’m pretty sure they have to meet _some_ standards. > > I haven’t been, although I’ve visited some “alternate” venues in my day. Alas, I missed the Krampus costume making party last night. But I’ll definitely hit the Pik-N-Pak Reunion at the end of the year; Ralph the Plumber’s seedy ice house was legendary. (Hey, it never burned!) > > Good times! Their website looks like it’s from about 2000, or is that the whole idea? ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/115 "2016-12-07T00:32:27Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > When [The Station fire] happened, even before the lawsuits started, there were MULTIPLE reports that the cameraman was indeed blocking the exit. And yet, the video clearly shows the cameraman exiting at a normal pace like everyone else, and getting away from the exit once he’s outside. Funny, he must’ve used the same photo-manipulating software like those clearly fake 9/11 videos. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/116 "2016-12-07T00:34:30Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I don’t see a problem there. The law says owners must make sure buildings meet certain conditions and standards for each type of use. Building inspections are to ensure that compliance, not create it. IOW, a commercial building owner knows, or should know, full well what the requirements are, and meet them for health, safety, insurance and economic reasons. It isn’t, or shouldn’t be, a shell game of what an owner can get away with in the absence of frequent, diligent inspections. > Reason #267 why Prop 13 may have been the worst piece of peepul-powurd legislation in US history. “Building inspections are to ensure that compliance, not create it.” Question. What if they don’t “ensure compliance”? Christ! ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/117 "2016-12-07T00:49:52Z")
I looked up the property tax history of the Ghost Ship address[here](https://www.acgov.org/propertytax/). It shows all the bills back to 2004-2005. The total amount took jumps in 2005-2006, 2008-2009 and 2013-2014, but the increases were due to code enforcement. It looks to me like the property hasn’t been reassessed since 2004, which is when the records begin. It’s possible that Ng didn’t buy the property in 2007, or that the property was sold at that time but not reassessed for some reason (e.g. a holding company as described by **Yllaria** ). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/118 "2016-12-07T00:58:06Z")
Here’s the dirty little fact no one ever wants to confront: EVERY city in the US (and probably the world) has dozens of similar buildings full of people who can’t afford what is defined as normal housing. Let’s say a city cracks down on illegal housing. Fine, what are you now going to do with hundreds of now-homeless people? At present we don’t have enough shelter beds for the current population that is living without a roof, what are you going to do when you add more people to that mix? Used to be there were things called “SRO’s” that provided rock-bottom housing for such folks but in the name of gentrification and such they were eliminated by the mid-1980’s. We also used to have “bedsits”, “boarding houses”, and other such low-rent accommodations but they have been largely eliminated. The people who needed and used such places, however, are still among us. But instead of living in a legal room in a legal building they now squat in fire traps. As I said in a prior post, when I lived in Chicago I was aware of artists living illegally in their workspaces. I was also aware of people living in the nooks and crannies of the building I lived in, sleeping in the basement or, in summer, on the roof. It’s easy not to see these people, and most people don’t care to, but they do exist. Sadly, the only time they seem to be noticed is when they die in a fire. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/119 "2016-12-07T03:33:07Z")
I know of an otherwise middle-class neighborhood in my city that has several apartment buildings that were purchased several years ago by someone who doesn’t maintain the buildings or screen his tenants as long as they have the first month’s rent in cash, which is significantly below what would otherwise be market value. To say that this has caused a lot of problems in said middle-class neighborhood is a vast understatement. Let’s just say that nobody would live there if they could live anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782/120 "2016-12-07T03:34:48Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > > [@Machine Elf](#): > > > > In aviation, it’s said that FAA regulations are written in blood, i.e. any given regulation generally exists because some tragedy happened in the past, and it was written in an effort to prevent such a tragedy from happening again. > > > > I suppose the same could be said for building codes/inspections. > > [Yep.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Society_of_Safety_Engineers) Some years ago when a whole bunch of houses went up in flames during yet another southern-California wildfire, an acquaintance of mine who was a firefighter in the area told me something interesting. In the aftermath of the fires, local municipalities had made a decision to change their building codes to require additional residential fireproofing measures in high-risk areas – things like fire-resistant roofs and siding, no flammable vegetation near houses, and so on. Once the decision was made and publicized, the new rules were set to take effect at some later date, like 6-12 months in the future. The result was a massive construction rush as homeowners, rebuilding after the conflagration, sought to have their new homes completed before the deadline so that they wouldn’t have to comply with these pesky new rules that were supposed to protect them from repeating the horrible experience they had just gone through. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ghostship-in-oakland-california/773782.md?page=7)